Junior football, what is the future?

[Jacksgranda]

7 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Yes the PWG could have circulated a factsheet about licensing and the pyramid. 

However, this approach to the meeting, could have been viewed as favouring the senior leagues, rather than attempting to secure an agreed compromise between the seniors & the juniors.

Now that an impasse between these organisations, the SFA/PWG is now free to write to all West juniors individually, asking if their club would be interested in joining a new West of England (senior) League, at Tier 6 within the Scottish pyramid  (for 2020/21) ?  Each club would be asked to reply YES or NO by mid/late February .  The SFA/PWG would state clearly that ALL replies would be given full assurances that the individual replies (to the SFA) would be treated with absolute confidence, meaning that the clubs names, would not be released.

The SFA/PWG would also make it clear that the purpose of the letter is to gauge the level of interest from junior clubs in the joining the pyramid. 

If there was a minimum of say, 10 clubs which replied "YES",  then the SFA has a mandate to advertise for clubs to apply to join a West pyramid league at Tier 6.

If there isn't a  sufficient level of interest from the West juniors is too low to make it viable a new league, then this matter is closed.  Any individual clubs who want to join the pyramid, must therefore apply to join the South or East of Scotland Leagues, on an individual club by club basis. However if there is sufficient interest, the SFA should take the lead, and invite applications for a new West league, by 31st March 2020, at the latest. This would end the current impasse (and confusion) in the West Region, one way or the other.

FOOTNOTE : the SFA/PWG should also state in its letter that clubs interested in applying, do NOT need an SFA licence, nor floodlights, to join any league at tier 6 level, or below.

 

Wow, the pyramid is really taking off.

[Burnie_man]

Yes the PWG could have circulated a factsheet about licensing and the pyramid. 

However, this approach to the meeting, could have been viewed as favouring the senior leagues, rather than attempting to secure an agreed compromise between the seniors & the juniors.

Now that an impasse between these organisations, the SFA/PWG is now free to write to all West juniors individually, asking if their club would be interested in joining a new West of England (senior) League, at Tier 6 within the Scottish pyramid  (for 2020/21) ?  Each club would be asked to reply YES or NO by mid/late February .  The SFA/PWG would state clearly that ALL replies would be given full assurances that the individual replies (to the SFA) would be treated with absolute confidence, meaning that the clubs names, would not be released.

The SFA/PWG would also make it clear that the purpose of the letter is to gauge the level of interest from junior clubs in the joining the pyramid. 

If there was a minimum of say, 10 clubs which replied "YES",  then the SFA has a mandate to advertise for clubs to apply to join a West pyramid league at Tier 6.

If there isn't a  sufficient level of interest from the West juniors is too low to make it viable a new league, then this matter is closed.  Any individual clubs who want to join the pyramid, must therefore apply to join the South or East of Scotland Leagues, on an individual club by club basis. However if there is sufficient interest, the SFA should take the lead, and invite applications for a new West league, by 31st March 2020, at the latest. This would end the current impasse (and confusion) in the West Region, one way or the other.

FOOTNOTE : the SFA/PWG should also state in its letter that clubs interested in applying, do NOT need an SFA licence, nor floodlights, to join any league at tier 6 level, or below.

 

Sigh, it needs to be pointed out that the PWG is just a collection of leagues (clue is in the name) that come together to discuss matters. They won't be emailing or writing to anyone. They are not an organisation.

 

I also doubt the SFA will be doing likewise either. They can't even take minutes.

 

It's upto clubs themselves now to take matters into their own hands.

 

[Beenzon-Toste]

In my opinion, IF there were no official Minutes taken at the PWG meeting, the SFA/PWG should (instead) issue a public statement clarifying the outcome of the meeting, and at the same time, highlight any inaccuracies/misunderstandings in Tom Johnson's 'Minutes'. 

So, what part or parts are inaccurate/misunderstood?

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Sigh, it needs to be pointed out that the PWG is just a collection of leagues (clue is in the name) that come together to discuss matters. They won't be emailing or writing to anyone.

I also doubt the SFA will be doing likewise either. They can't even take minutes.

It's upto clubs themselves now to take matters into their own hands.

Burnie_man, I rarely disagree with your insight and views, but I do this time.

Because the "outcome" of the PWG meeting meant that there was no agreement, and no proposed way ahead in implementing a nationwide pyramid**, as the 'parent body' (as recognised by FIFA/UEFA), the SFA now has the right (and an obligation) to step in, and stick its head above the parapet. At least 3 years of confusion, indecision, and delay hasn't helped the image of Scottish non-league football, nor helped the West clubs to decide its future, without the SJFA controlling the narrative.

Surely you, as the 'main man' on this forum, don't want the current situation to continue ? The matter needs to be brought to a head IMO. 

 **FOOTNOTE :    the North/Tayside Regions also need a pyramid league at tier 6, but the West is the current priority, and nothing can be resolved until the HFL/SLL boundary is either moved, or confirmed.  

[FairWeatherFan]

24 minutes ago, Robert James said:

FOOTNOTE : the SFA/PWG should also state in its letter that clubs interested in applying, do NOT need an SFA licence, nor floodlights, to join any league at tier 6 level, or below.

 

Footnote: The PWG aren't having anymore meetings, therefore doesn't exist anymore. The SFA were the ones to call time on it as its now seen as fruitless. Neither entity will be doing anything.

Keep in mind as pointed out by @Burnie_man there's meant to be a proposal going in front of the SFA AGM that will remove all non-licenced clubs from the Scottish Cup. That would mean the SFA has no more dealings with the SJFA and only have Bank's O'dee and Girvan as members within the SJFA structure. By which time Banks O'dee could be in the Highland League and Girvan may have lost their licence.

It's entirely about the clubs doing something. The Lowland League can just go out and create a Lowland League Two fill it with 16 licenced clubs so don't have to worry about promotion and relegation issues between Tier 5 and 6. Strengthens their League Cup competition and sponsorship opportunities.

You can then just have licenced SoSFL and licenced EoSFL champions going into the Lowland League Two. There's probably enough EoSFL clubs that would take that and the SoSFL wouldn't mind being knocked down a tier.

Notice how it doesn't involve West of Scotland clubs though. West of Scotland clubs want to get into the pyramid its getting together to form their own league or signing up en masse for the SoSFL.

[Burnie_man]

Burnie_man, I rarely disagree with your insight and views, but I do this time.
Because the "outcome" of the PWG meeting meant that there was no agreement, and no proposed way ahead in implementing a nationwide pyramid**, as the 'parent body' (as recognised by FIFA/UEFA), the SFA now has the right (and an obligation) to step in, and stick its head above the parapet. At least 3 years of confusion, indecision, and delay hasn't helped the image of Scottish non-league football, nor helped the West clubs to decide its future, without the SJFA controlling the narrative.
Surely you, as the 'main man' on this forum, don't want the current situation to continue ? The matter needs to be brought to a head IMO. 
 **FOOTNOTE :    the North/Tayside Regions also need a pyramid league at tier 6, but the West is the current priority, and nothing can be resolved until the HFL/SLL boundary is either moved, or confirmed.  

I'm merely pointing out that the PWG is not an organisation. It's just a name given to a meeting of leagues. So constantly asking for "them" to announce this and that isn't going to happen. It's upto the individual leagues to communicate what happens accurately to it's members in the absence of the SFA getting one of their staff to take minutes.

There's no more meetings anytime soon, there might never be if things move in the direction that they are in the west.

[Boswelldriver]

Perfectly logical when teams are able to rack up games in hand due to cups having to be played saturdays.
Buffs have dropped points in 33% of games
Lok in 40%
Meadow in 42%
Bot in 23%
Bot have 6 in hand over Meadow, 7 over Lok and 8 over Buffs. Despite this, they have scored the most goals and have conceded the least.
Bot will win the league and probably by around 10 points.

This isn't really an argument for this thread but I'll take your bait.

Considering Pollok Juniors have one of the best or if not the best support West Juniors and are well backed financially then they should be the team to catch?

But year in year out something is wrong at your club. Maybe we just have made our set up better.

Back to your argument, Talbot need to win these games in hand my friend so I would rather have the points in the bag of you catch my drift.

[archieb]

5 minutes ago, Boswelldriver said:

This isn't really an argument for this thread but I'll take your bait.

Considering Pollok Juniors have one of the best or if not the best support West Juniors and are well backed financially then they should be the team to catch?

But year in year out something is wrong at your club. Maybe we just have made our set up better.

Back to your argument, Talbot need to win these games in hand my friend so I would rather have the points in the bag of you catch my drift.

For the umpteenth time there is no club called "Pollok Juniors".  It's just plain Pollok or Pollok FC please.

[Marshmallo]

I've had enough. Fired R. James on ignore. An absolute bore and the formatting and style is mental.

[Robert James]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I'm merely pointing out that the PWG is not an organisation. It's just a name given to a meeting of leagues. So constantly asking for "them" to announce this and that isn't going to happen. It's upto the individual leagues to communicate what happens accurately to it's members in the absence of the SFA getting one of their staff to take minutes.

There's no more meetings anytime soon, there might never be if things move in the direction that they are in the west.

Yes I know the status of the PWG, but although I consider the PWG stalemate to be sad, I (genuinely) bow to your greater knowledge. Let's see what happens, and whether sufficient West junior clubs bite the bullet. We should know in a week or two, whether any junior clubs will get together and support Clydebank & Kilwinning ? 

[cmontheloknow]

17 minutes ago, Boswelldriver said:

This isn't really an argument for this thread but I'll take your bait.

Considering Pollok Juniors have one of the best or if not the best support West Juniors and are well backed financially then they should be the team to catch?

But year in year out something is wrong at your club. Maybe we just have made our set up better.

Back to your argument, Talbot need to win these games in hand my friend so I would rather have the points in the bag of you catch my drift.

But you will win them unless there is a complete and unprecedented form collapse. You have scored the most goals, conceded the least goals and have dropped the fewest points proportionally with a significant amount of games in hand. If you are saying Talbot are not fully in charge in the league you've started early.

As for why Lok are not in Talbot's position... a long story on our side, shorter on yours. Tucker has been Bot boss since November 2003. He took over a side that had finished just above the relegation zone in 02-03 and then not won any of their opening six league games in 03-04, and since then has built and tweaked his side over the years.

At Newlandsfield in the same time period, the managerial office has had somewhat of a revolving door, with each new broom sweeping large elements of the previous regime away.

Ronnie Lowrie

Rab Sneddon

Jim Sinnet

Harry Erwin (caretaker for 20+ games)

Rab Sneddon (again)

Willie Irvine

John Richardson

Steve Docherty

Tony McInally

Murdo MacKinnon

Within that list we have flirted with relegation at least once and gone down once too.

Our last real quality side (IMO) was  Rab Sneddon's in the mid 00s.

Edited February 1, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[Arthurlie1981]

The EoS have previously requested that the SFA provide minutes of meetings. Sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't.

Fair play to them for asking but in the organisation I work in (not to dissimilar to the role of the SFA) had minutes not been taken in a meeting like this we would have gotten our baws well and truly booted and deservedly so. I don’t care if the the chief exec and president were there or not (that actually makes it worse imo) it has to be done.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Yes I know the status of the PWG, but although I consider the PWG stalemate to be sad, I (genuinely) bow to your greater knowledge. Let's see what happens, and whether sufficient West junior clubs bite the bullet. We should know in a week or two, whether any junior clubs will get together and support Clydebank & Kilwinning ? 

It’d be nice, but if they dont im sure there will be other clubs interested from elsewhere, i’d hope/expect us to leave regardless.

[stanley]

12 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

I've had enough. Fired R. James on ignore. An absolute bore and the formatting and style is mental.

I did that weeks ago.  Improves these threads massively.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Fair play to them for asking but in the organisation I work in (not to dissimilar to the role of the SFA) had minutes not been taken in a meeting like this we would have gotten our baws well and truly booted and deservedly so. I don’t care if the the chief exec and president were there or not (that actually makes it worse imo) it has to be done.

I don't disagree, and it perhaps illustrates how bothered they are about the whole process, or just how poor they are at recording meetings.

I have sat in the Hampden boardroom in a meeting with the then CEO (matters unconnected with club football), minutes were taken, submitted to SFA for checking, and published.  But it wasn't the SFA taking them.

[Arthurlie1981]

I'm merely pointing out that the PWG is not an organisation. It's just a name given to a meeting of leagues. So constantly asking for "them" to announce this and that isn't going to happen. It's upto the individual leagues to communicate what happens accurately to it's members in the absence of the SFA getting one of their staff to take minutes.

There's no more meetings anytime soon, there might never be if things move in the direction that they are in the west.

It doesn’t matter if they are an organisation or not they can send things out on behalf of all the parties involved. They can all agreed tor communication to come out, and if they can’t, out the organisation who blocks it. It happens across many different bodies right across Scotland.

The more I find out about this so called PWG the more I can understand why we have ended up here.

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

It doesn’t matter if they are an organisation or not they can send things out on behalf of all the parties involved. They can all agreed tor communication to come out, and if they can’t, out the organisation who blocks it. It happens across many different bodies right across Scotland.

The more I find out about this so called PWG the more I can understand why we have ended up here.

The PWG are not a "thing", they can't agree on anything yet you expect them to agree on minutes?

The SFA as the facilitator and arbiter of these meetings are the ones who should be taking minutes.

It's all immaterial now anyway.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Burnie_man

[Arthurlie1981]

The PWG are not a "thing", they can't agree on anything yet you expect them to agree on minutes?

The SFA as the facilitator and arbiter of these meetings are the ones who should be taking minutes.

It's all immaterial now anyway.

 

They are a ‘thing’ they are a meeting of representative bodies with the aim of bringing forward proposals on creating a fully functional structure. But yet they don’t keep minutes!!

 

And it’s not immaterial imo. There are still decisions to be taken by west clubs and the only information they have to make this decision is a shambolic email and that’s it. There is a vacuum of information and only one person is attempting to fill it.

[Arthurlie1981]

I don't disagree, and it perhaps illustrates how bothered they are about the whole process, or just how poor they are at recording meetings.
I have sat in the Hampden boardroom in a meeting with the then CEO (matters unconnected with club football), minutes were taken, submitted to SFA for checking, and published.  But it wasn't the SFA taking them.

That’s a really fair point. Maybe they just paid lip service and can say to the Board well we tried didn’t work out so thats that.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

They are a ‘thing’ they are a meeting of representative bodies with the aim of bringing forward proposals on creating a fully functional structure. But yet they don’t keep minutes!!

And it’s not immaterial imo. There are still decisions to be taken by west clubs and the only information they have to make this decision is a shambolic email and that’s it. There is a vacuum of information and only one person is attempting to fill it.

Clubs know enough to act if they want to be in the Pyramid next season. Clydebank and Kilwinning know enough.

Regardless of the accuracy of his notes, TAJ has confirmed the SJFA proposal turned down, you won't be in the Pyramid next season as things stand, and there are no further PWG meetings planned. He has confirmed this verbally to Kilwinning according to their facebook page.

So, if clubs want to be in the Pyramid next season with all that it entails, they need to act now.  If they are happy being in the Juniors, they don't need to do anything.