Junior football, what is the future?

[energyzone]

Talbot had to beat Kelty and Cove and were 4 minutes away from beating Arbroath, the three teams that got further than them might have had an easier run into the 4th round.

Talbot aren't representative of the juniors though. You're by far the best, richest and most successful - miles and miles ahead of everyone else, and have been for a long time. It's like saying Celtic are representative of Scottish football. It's an anomaly.

[FairWeatherFan]

The basic point about applying for the South of Scotland League, that has absolutely nothing to do with playing in the South of Scotland League.

It Actually Exists

Who's going to set up a WoSFL? The Lowland League, the EoSFL, the SFA, the clubs? Nobody knows and nobody knows how it starts. The Clydebank and Kilwinning statements are just vague enough that there will be those hoping it just blows over and the status quo remains. If they were to declare they were applying for the SoSFL and actually leaving that's another matter. The West Region is now longer going to be the same. That would also have the SoSFL sitting at 17 clubs, two or three more and the SoSFL is at a tipping point. A large single division that might not be completed in time for the Lowland League play-off or split divisions. It's a position that it probably doesn't want to be in. Those 5+ applicants can then be put in a room together. Maybe the monthly meeting between the LL/EoS/SoS and discussion over how a WoSFL can be founded and fit into the pyramid.

A Negative Into a Positive

When Clydebank did their investigation into the pyramid after voting senior, a criticism of the SoSFL on here by a poster was that you had to pay to join. This is actually a bond that gets paid back after 3 years. This is something that was seen as a negative, but for the creation of a WoSFL would actually be a positive. If all the clubs willing to join the SoSFL are willing to pay that bond. They'll be prepared to pay the same to cover the start up costs for a WoSFL. There's going to be some one off expenses and other running costs, which maybe why some organisations are only offering assistance to start a league rather than actually run it.

• League Championship trophy
• League Cup trophy
• Website
• Unexpected Costs
• Token Prize Money to cover lack of sponsor
• At least a token sum to the Secretary willing to run the league
• ???

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, energyzone said:

10 hours ago, Blackie Gold said:

Talbot had to beat Kelty and Cove and were 4 minutes away from beating Arbroath, the three teams that got further than them might have had an easier run into the 4th round.

Talbot aren't representative of the juniors though. You're by far the best, richest and most successful - miles and miles ahead of everyone else, and have been for a long time. It's like saying Celtic are representative of Scottish football. It's an anomaly.

Correct. Talbot are skooshing their own league. We are 2nd and 7 clear... but they have 7 in hand,

[Guest]

The basic point about applying for the South of Scotland League, that has absolutely nothing to do with playing in the South of Scotland League.
It Actually Exists
Who's going to set up a WoSFL? The Lowland League, the EoSFL, the SFA, the clubs? Nobody knows and nobody knows how it starts. The Clydebank and Kilwinning statements are just vague enough that there will be those hoping it just blows over and the status quo remains. If they were to declare they were applying for the SoSFL and actually leaving that's another matter. The West Region is now longer going to be the same. That would also have the SoSFL sitting at 17 clubs, two or three more and the SoSFL is at a tipping point. A large single division that might not be completed in time for the Lowland League play-off or split divisions. It's a position that it probably doesn't want to be in. Those 5+ applicants can then be put in a room together. Maybe the monthly meeting between the LL/EoS/SoS and discussion over how a WoSFL can be founded and fit into the pyramid.
A Negative Into a Positive
When Clydebank did their investigation into the pyramid after voting senior, a criticism of the SoSFL on here by a poster was that you had to pay to join. This is actually a bond that gets paid back after 3 years. This is something that was seen as a negative, but for the creation of a WoSFL would actually be a positive. If all the clubs willing to join the SoSFL are willing to pay that bond. They'll be prepared to pay the same to cover the start up costs for a WoSFL. There's going to be some one off expenses and other running costs, which maybe why some organisations are only offering assistance to start a league rather than actually run it.

• League Championship trophy
• League Cup trophy
• Website
• Unexpected Costs
• Token Prize Money to cover lack of sponsor
• At least a token sum to the Secretary willing to run the league
• ???

The wosfl is the easiest and cleanest version to get the west club into the pyramid.

West clubs who are interested put into the public domain they are interested (like the others who already have).

They then get together and invite the LL, sos and eos to a meeting to set out terms for a new wosfl. The LL, sos and eos guide, support and help run (for a short period) the new league.

This is indicative of things right now where people want to take the easiest option, take the leap, nothing good ever came of status quo or doing the same thing and staying put 'just because'.

[Boswelldriver]

Correct. Talbot are skooshing their own league. We are 2nd and 7 clear... but they have 7 in hand,

Well that makes logical sense

 

Ps. How did my comment make its way into this thread?

 

 

 

[cmontheloknow]

6 minutes ago, Boswelldriver said:

Well that makes logical sense

 

Ps. How did my comment make its way into this thread?

 

 

 

Perfectly logical when teams are able to rack up games in hand due to cups having to be played saturdays.

Buffs have dropped points in 33% of games

Lok in 40%

Meadow in 42%

Bot in 23%

Bot have 6 in hand over Meadow, 7 over Lok and 8 over Buffs. Despite this, they have scored the most goals and have conceded the least.

Bot will win the league and probably by around 10 points.

Edited February 1, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[Robert James]

17 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

For me that is utterly shambolic. I mean this is what allows misinformation to get out there. It doesn’t need to be verbatim but it needs to accurately reflect the discussion.

 

In my opinion, IF there were no official Minutes taken at the PWG meeting, the SFA/PWG should (instead) issue a public statement clarifying the outcome of the meeting, and at the same time, highlight any inaccuracies/misunderstandings in Tom Johnson's 'Minutes'. 

[Dev]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The basic point about applying for the South of Scotland League, that has absolutely nothing to do with playing in the South of Scotland League.

It Actually Exists

Who's going to set up a WoSFL? The Lowland League, the EoSFL, the SFA, the clubs? Nobody knows and nobody knows how it starts. The Clydebank and Kilwinning statements are just vague enough that there will be those hoping it just blows over and the status quo remains. If they were to declare they were applying for the SoSFL and actually leaving that's another matter. The West Region is now longer going to be the same. That would also have the SoSFL sitting at 17 clubs, two or three more and the SoSFL is at a tipping point. A large single division that might not be completed in time for the Lowland League play-off or split divisions. It's a position that it probably doesn't want to be in. Those 5+ applicants can then be put in a room together. Maybe the monthly meeting between the LL/EoS/SoS and discussion over how a WoSFL can be founded and fit into the pyramid.

A Negative Into a Positive

When Clydebank did their investigation into the pyramid after voting senior, a criticism of the SoSFL on here by a poster was that you had to pay to join. This is actually a bond that gets paid back after 3 years. This is something that was seen as a negative, but for the creation of a WoSFL would actually be a positive. If all the clubs willing to join the SoSFL are willing to pay that bond. They'll be prepared to pay the same to cover the start up costs for a WoSFL. There's going to be some one off expenses and other running costs, which maybe why some organisations are only offering assistance to start a league rather than actually run it.

• League Championship trophy
• League Cup trophy
• Website
• Unexpected Costs
• Token Prize Money to cover lack of sponsor
• At least a token sum to the Secretary willing to run the league
• ???

Well it is now down to the LL, E0S and SoS to debrief following the PWG meeting i.e. as usual.

It will be interesting to see what happens after these leagues hold their next regular individual meetings. Whenever they may be - presumably they each hold monthly meetings?

Hopefully there will be action following these meetings. Whether that action is open to view or not remains to be seen. Hopefully something positive will then emerge so that other Juniors will have a route to follow.

[Arthurlie1981]

In my opinion, IF there were no official Minutes taken at the PWG meeting, the SFA/PWG should (instead) issue a public statement clarifying the outcome of the meeting, and at the same time, highlight any inaccuracies/misunderstandings in Tom Johnson's 'Minutes'. 

Exactly my point. All this lack of information throughout the process has allowed misinformation to be spread by those with a vested interest in the status quo.

The PWG should have put out a key facts sheet that would have settled the licence debate months ago and such and important meeting should have minute taken especially when there are key decisions being taken.

For that part of it all member of the PWG are to blame for that. The misinformation and that shambolic email yesterday shows why it needed to be done.

[Dev]

It will be interesting to see what happens after the SJFA and the individual regions hold their own debriefs. I wouldn't be too keen to be in TJ's shoes after that. Times they are a changin'.

[djorkiev]

13 hours ago, gogsy said:

Says more about the stupidity of the supporters that are saying that . Lowland league teams have beaten Edinburgh City, St Mirren (on penalties) knocked  Annan Athletic, Montrose and East Fife out of cup competitions this season, three got further than Talbot as well . Teams in the EOS league beat Cowdenbeath and Stenhousemuir as well.

 

 

Think you should consider a few things before you posted, how many junior teams have access to the big cup every season, if you gauge success on ratio of entries at the start of this comp, think you'll find the juniors outperform most tier 6 teams, think you missed my main point also, i look for entertainment on a saturday, i don't see any improvement for fans in this proposed new set up, all about opinions , and quite a few share mine, no arrogance or stupidity, fact.

Edited February 1, 2020 by djorkiev
typo

[cmontheloknow]

4 minutes ago, djorkiev said:

Think you should consider a few things before you posted, how many junior teams have access to the big cup every season, if you gauge success on ratio of entries at the start of this comp, think you'll find the juniors outperform most tier 6 teams, think you missed my main point also, i look for entertainment on a saturday, i don't see any improvement for fans in this proposed new set up, all about opinions , and quite a few share mine, no arrogance or stupidity, fact.

It won't get worse either and it does away with a historic divide that serves no purpose. Clubs in the East have been encouraged to improve facilities. I bring my daughter to games sometimes. It'a dreadful experience for her at some grounds. Lack of toilets, nowhere to sit down other than a cold concrete step etc... semi pro football is about getting punters through the gate to keep things afloat. Too many people assume that any step towards the pyramid automatically means increased cost and the prospect of Elgin away every 2nd tuesday. Despite the size of club, Pollok haven't won a league title since we had a Labour PM and it won't be happening this year either. Only clubs at the very top need worry about anything remotely like change but change is open to all who wish to go there. That opportunity doesn't exist just now. The pyramid has, on evidence widely available, been wilfully missold by the SJFA to keep their irrelevant (IMO - but I am not alone in  that view!) organisation alive for a few more seasons. Chickens will come home to roost.

[FairWeatherFan]

22 minutes ago, Dev said:

It will be interesting to see what happens after the SJFA and the individual regions hold their own debriefs. I wouldn't be too keen to be in TJ's shoes after that. Times they are a changin'.

The West Region just had their quarterly meeting so probably won't have one until around April. There's also a number of clubs in the region, just like in the East, who are going to be happy to remain Junior.

The North Region are apparently still negotiating to get into the pyramid by themselves. So the Lowland PWG meeting means nothing to them.

The East Region is still split by the Tayside issue, those that are upset over it can just apply to the EoSFL.

TJ will still be the Secretary of the SJFA in 2020-21.

Edited February 1, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[Monalie]

What kind of mickey mouse organization doesn't take minutes of it's meetings, especially one as important as this?

 

[Marshmallo]

It's not really relevant to the current pyramid discussions, but Darvel would be favourites on a neutral pitch against more than half of the LL.

[Salvo Montalbano]

I also know that if we are lucky enough to get promoted this season our fans would rather we played talbot , Hurlford , meadow , beith , pollok etc than any of the clubs in the LL league , surely they The paying customers should be asked on their views towards this 

Why would Darvel be playing any of the clubs in the Lowland League if a WoSL gets set up? You do realise you would be playing those clubs anyway right? Until they all got promoted and you didn't, which would take around a decade or more.

[Burnie_man]

Exactly my point. All this lack of information throughout the process has allowed misinformation to be spread by those with a vested interest in the status quo.

The PWG should have put out a key facts sheet that would have settled the licence debate months ago and such and important meeting should have minute taken especially when there are key decisions being taken.

For that part of it all member of the PWG are to blame for that. The misinformation and that shambolic email yesterday shows why it needed to be done.

The EoS have previously requested that the SFA provide minutes of meetings. Sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Monalie said:

What kind of mickey mouse organization doesn't take minutes of it's meetings, especially one as important as this?

The minutes for the January 9th 2019 PWG meeting started like this:

Quote

IM stated that the draft Minutes were now available from the meeting on 14 November 2018 and they would be circulated to all members after the meeting.

So the SFA never sent out minutes of the November 2018 PWG until after the January 2019 PWG had concluded. Since there's no more PWG meetings scheduled, maybe no minutes will ever be produced.

[Monalie]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The minutes for the January 9th 2019 PWG meeting started like this:

So the SFA never sent out minutes of the November 2018 PWG until after the January 2019 PWG had concluded. Since there's no more PWG meetings scheduled, maybe no minutes will ever be produced.

Shambolic organization.

[Robert James]

12 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Exactly my point. All this lack of information throughout the process has allowed misinformation to be spread by those with a vested interest in the status quo.

The PWG should have put out a key facts sheet that would have settled the licence debate months ago and such and important meeting should have minute taken especially when there are key decisions being taken.

For that part of it all member of the PWG are to blame for that. The misinformation and that shambolic email yesterday shows why it needed to be done.

 

Yes the PWG could have circulated a factsheet about licensing and the pyramid. 

However, this approach to the meeting, could have been viewed as favouring the senior leagues, rather than attempting to secure an agreed compromise between the seniors & the juniors.

Now that an impasse between these organisations, the SFA/PWG is now free to write to all West juniors individually, asking if their club would be interested in joining a new West of England (senior) League, at Tier 6 within the Scottish pyramid  (for 2020/21) ?  Each club would be asked to reply YES or NO by mid/late February .  The SFA/PWG would state clearly that ALL replies would be given full assurances that the individual replies (to the SFA) would be treated with absolute confidence, meaning that the clubs names, would not be released.

The SFA/PWG would also make it clear that the purpose of the letter is to gauge the level of interest from junior clubs in the joining the pyramid. 

If there was a minimum of say, 10 clubs which replied "YES",  then the SFA has a mandate to advertise for clubs to apply to join a West pyramid league at Tier 6.

If there isn't a  sufficient level of interest from the West juniors is too low to make it viable a new league, then this matter is closed.  Any individual clubs who want to join the pyramid, must therefore apply to join the South or East of Scotland Leagues, on an individual club by club basis. However if there is sufficient interest, the SFA should take the lead, and invite applications for a new West league, by 31st March 2020, at the latest. This would end the current impasse (and confusion) in the West Region, one way or the other.

FOOTNOTE : the SFA/PWG should also state in its letter that clubs interested in applying, do NOT need an SFA licence, nor floodlights, to join any league at tier 6 level, or below.