Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

16 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Craigroyston have confirmed they will have a new manager next year. Eyemouth is a outlying example of a club folding.

Craigroyston as a club moved to the Juniors to try and solve some of their concerns when the it looked like the EoS might collapse. They were dealing with the same sort of issues regardless of where they were playing. That's not a senior or junior argument. That's just the rising costs of football with a small club. Like you say they've found a way to continue as well.

As for Eyemouth I do hope they return next season. I believe they were actually listed in the Conferences and in Cup draws and there withdrawal was very last minute. Possibly because the manager left? There situation is more about the state of Borders football more than anything. Kelso United, Duns all folded. Selkirk moved to more Edinburgh based players struggling to get local players that could compete in the Lowland League. Recently you've also seen the merger of Hawick Royal Albert and Hawick United. With the likes of Gala Fairydean also previously merging with Gala Rovers.

End of the day its two of the smallest clubs in the EoS and you look at the bottom leagues of the Juniors you'll find plenty of examples of abeyance or outright folding in the past 10 tears. That's just football at that level.

[Burnie_man]

47 minutes ago, teamfinderscot said:

There’s plenty benefits going to pyramid. I enjoy the EoS setup having played there, also enjoy the juniors as well. Currently the big teams have pushed on +1/2 maybe punching above their weight in eos. The medium to small teams most have moved and maybe some may prefer eos but the quality of football in my opinion isn’t any better. For some teams possibly worse. The east regions is getting a bad write up but most teams in the super leagues are gathering bigger crowds than in the eosfl conferences. I’d expect most super league teams to win at least half their matches in these conferences also without being disrespectful. I support football at all levels but the juniors I feel should stay the juniors as it’s got that nostalgia and a proper community feel that a lot of senior clubs maybe don’t have. Also there’s not currently enough clubs eligible for a licence for the Scottish cup so would be replacing the magic of the junior cup for a secondary trophy (unsure what would be called if all teams moved) which won’t mean as much to the fans, again no disrespect intended. I’m a lot younger than those people who wish to stay loyal to the grade. I just feel it’s a massive step and it could maybe signal the end for a few smaller teams. Craigroyston say they will cease at end of season, Eyemouth have taken a non playing membership. The grass isn’t always greener folks. However for the ambitious clubs with plenty money and support I’m sure they could go and do a grand job and compete. Even look at Linlithgow in the top east of Scotland league. They used to be in hat for junior cup for many seasons and have struggled a lot this season. If you look at juniors websites and how fixtures are compiled now. It’s like last year the max exodus was the boot up the backside it needed to get with the times.

EoS is little different from ERJFA in all aspects of spectator experience, community engagement or anything else you care to mention.  How can it not be? You also find muddy pitches, burnt pies and crap refs in the EoS, you still find the committed volunteers and the auld guys who have been watching their teams for generations in the EoS. It's just fitba. 

I went to Bathgate Thistle v Whitburn yesterday and I was shocked at how poor the standard was for these once big ERJFA clubs, indeed both Junior Cup winners in the last 20 years, the attendance was no more than 100. They're going nowhere fast in the current set-up, and it appears the crowds have dwindled.

However, they should have the choice to do what they want, if that means remaining Junior and not joining EoS then so be it, it's entirely upto them.

Craigroyston don't appear to be folding, and Eyemouth are intent on returning I believe.

[FairWeatherFan]

To be honest I find it amazing how people can fairly compare 24 Conference clubs and 20 East Region Super League clubs. Where do you all find the time?

Edited January 26, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[Robert James]

15 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The core SoS catchment has a population of around 150,000 and already has QoS, Stranraer, Annan, Gretna and Dalbeattie playing in higher tiers meaning there's not much left that isn't basically public park amateur sort of level.

There is nothing clear and logical about a three-way split on that basis when the other two envisaged catchments are an order of magnitude larger in population terms.

The rational way to do it with no overlapping feeders would be a straight two-way east-west split centred on Glasgow and Edinburgh as the two largest cities rather than a three-way one centred on Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dumfries.

 

Logical maybe, but definitely a 'spanner in the works' for 2020/21......... presumably aimed at stirring up the SoSL over its (projected) loss of status.  This is NOT an urgent issue.

Another attempt by the Lurker, at causing pyramid delay in the West ? 

[Robert James]

31 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

EoS is little different from ERJFA in all aspects of spectator experience, community engagement or anything else you care to mention.  How can it not be? You also find muddy pitches, burnt pies and crap refs in the EoS, you still find the committed volunteers and the auld guys who have been watching their teams for generations in the EoS. It's just fitba. 

I went to Bathgate Thistle v Whitburn yesterday and I was shocked at how poor the standard was for these once big ERJFA clubs, indeed both Junior Cup winners in the last 20 years, the attendance was no more than 100. They're going nowhere fast in the current set-up, and it appears the crowds have dwindled.

However, they should have the choice to do what they want, if that means remaining Junior and not joining EoS then so be it, it's entirely upto them.

Craigroyston don't appear to be folding, and Eyemouth are intent on returning I believe.

Also Selkirk, who were a club which committed suicide through being over ambitious. I understand however that there are moves to create a new (senior) EoSL club in the not too distant future (?). 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Predictive texting is even better

Not a big Simpsons fan then?

[BTID]

The bit I don’t really get is when folk start going on about the magic of the Scottish junior cup wouldnt be the same or all the nostalgic romanticism of the grade.

They seem to forget the fact half the east region, which was a powerhouse at one point within the junior game, has left. The magic of the Scottish cup is already dead because it’s pretty much just a west cup with a few north/east sides but very few will ever compete in the latter stages. 
 

The moment the east clubs jumped ship was the end of the junior grade as we know it. It’s now a case of fixing everyone into the same level and getting on with it. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

The bit I don’t really get is when folk start going on about the magic of the Scottish junior cup wouldnt be the same or all the nostalgic romanticism of the grade.
They seem to forget the fact half the east region, which was a powerhouse at one point within the junior game, has left. The magic of the Scottish cup is already dead because it’s pretty much just a west cup with a few north/east sides but very few will ever compete in the latter stages. 
 
The moment the east clubs jumped ship was the end of the junior grade as we know it. It’s now a case of fixing everyone into the same level and getting on with it. 

I dont really find it magical? If we get a draw up north its a day out for the boys, but magical? Its just a cup. I dont understand all this stuff about ‘the uniqueness of the grade etc’ its essentially minor league football, there is minor league sports all around the world, its great to have, but its not some unique concoction that only exists in ex mining villages where people only care about who’s village beats the other village. Indeed in other sports and other countries non-league/minor league/junior sports actively go out their way to promote, think creatively and adapt with the times. I go to quite a lot of minor league sports in the states and they are some of the most forward thinking, resourceful and astute folks in sport, that cannot be said for junior football.

[BTID]

I have to say I grew up with the Bankies in the junior cup and for me there was some memorable moments. Reaching the final, Tayport home and away, Bathgate, Lochee, Pollok etc

It did feel special to me, but at the end of the day the reality of the situation is at the time there wasn’t really any proper talk or moves to a pyramid so it’s all you know. 
 

The Scottish Junior cup has been decimated by the east block leaving. It will never be the same and it’s time to move on. 

[Arthurlie1981]

I dont really find it magical? If we get a draw up north its a day out for the boys, but magical? Its just a cup. I dont understand all this stuff about ‘the uniqueness of the grade etc’ its essentially minor league football, there is minor league sports all around the world, its great to have, but its not some unique concoction that only exists in ex mining villages where people only care about who’s village beats the other village. Indeed in other sports and other countries non-league/minor league/junior sports actively go out their way to promote, think creatively and adapt with the times. I go to quite a lot of minor league sports in the states and they are some of the most forward thinking, resourceful and astute folks in sport, that cannot be said for junior football.

I disagree with you about the junior cup. It was always a special competition but I do agree it lost a lot of its glamour with the leaving of East clubs.

Maybe it’s different for Clydebank fans who (some) don’t see junior football as their ‘home’ having been robbed of their club but I don’t think its the same for fans of clubs in smaller towns and villages.

Totally agree with how the game should have been organised but with the SJFA being comfortable with not moving with the times. Many suggestions have been ignored and advice disregarded with how to improve communication with fans.

[Che Dail]

9 hours ago, parsforlife said:

The magic of the junior cup might exist in historic memories of tayport or Whitburn (neither side has been anywhere near the later stages this decade) but for everyone else it was never a tournament for them, they’ll not miss it.   In terms of prestige I’m not sure the junior cup is any bigger than the south challenge, for talbot, beith, arthurlie, pollok and lochee you have kelty, Berwick, Spartans, Bonnyrigg, Bo’ness 

Yes - Only 5 years since Musselburgh lost the Junior Cup final - reaching it was a huge achievement at the time - twice in 10 years in fact.

But now they're creating new history with their first EoS cup win yesterday and looking forward to playing in the Scottish Cup next season - an inspiration for everyone else.

 

[Arthurlie1981]

As much as I want the pyramid to work and I have encourage people at my club to move with whatever is coming forward out of the PWG, I do find some of the comments ‘doing down’ junior football distasteful. As a grade has it seen it’s day, of course and that is the fault of a great many people for not moving with the times. But junior football has been part of a great many communities of a great number of years with many great players starting their careers at that level. It brought communities together and to dismiss that is totally wrong. (Especially it seems by some posters on here who haven’t been involved with a junior club)

Is it different or special? well that’s open to everyone’s interpretation but I won’t forget some of the moments, both high and low, that watching Arthurlie play in Junior football has given me.

Lets look to the future with whatever comes from the PWG but let’s not forget or attempt to rewrite the past. The Junior grade was a good product but I think it’s time is coming to an end (then again who knows!!)

[teamfinderscot]

Yes - Only 5 years since Musselburgh lost the Junior Cup final - reaching it was a huge achievement at the time - twice in 10 years in fact.

But now they're creating new history with their first EoS cup win yesterday and looking forward to playing in the Scottish Cup next season - an inspiration for everyone else.

 

Fair play to Musselburgh winning that cup, was shocked the attendance was only 220, that’s about half of the fauldhouse pumpherston final last year and same for the Thornton and Livingston. I was expecting over 1000 due to the chance of Scottish cup. However that’s just football and times are changing I’m not slating pyramid, I loved playing east of Scotland but just feel juniors isn’t as bad as it’s made out to be just now.

[Peters Wyngarde]

Why on Earth would you expect over 1000? Regardless of what was at stake?

[Burnie_man]

51 minutes ago, teamfinderscot said:

Fair play to Musselburgh winning that cup, was shocked the attendance was only 220, that’s about half of the fauldhouse pumpherston final last year and same for the Thornton and Livingston. I was expecting over 1000 due to the chance of Scottish cup. However that’s just football and times are changing I’m not slating pyramid, I loved playing east of Scotland but just feel juniors isn’t as bad as it’s made out to be just now.

If you were expecting 1,000 then I'm afraid you're pretty much ill informed.  I estimated around 300 would come through to Blackburn (for catering purposes) a bit short of that so a little disappointing, but Musselburgh had the bulk of the support, I didn't really detect any sort of Mid Annandale support at all.  It was also up against Hearts v Rangers live on telly, was a fair distance for both clubs to travel, and also expected to be a one-sided game as Mussy had already beaten them 5-0 in the South Challenge Cup.

So all told, the crowd was much as expected.

[FairWeatherFan]

The Alex Jack Cup final that Musselburgh had to win to contest the South/East Cup Winners Shield had an attendance of 742 against Oakley United.

I'm sure there would be some disappointment over the attendance of the Shield but it wasn't an attractive game on paper for casuals and Mid-Annandale don't have a large support themselves.

[Sidney Lumet]

50 minutes ago, teamfinderscot said:

Fair play to Musselburgh winning that cup, was shocked the attendance was only 220, that’s about half of the fauldhouse pumpherston final last year and same for the Thornton and Livingston. I was expecting over 1000 due to the chance of Scottish cup. However that’s just football and times are changing I’m not slating pyramid, I loved playing east of Scotland but just feel juniors isn’t as bad as it’s made out to be just now.

Fantasy quite clearly taking precedence over reality here. Why would you possibly expect over 1000 fans to be at the game? Musselburgh to Blackburn is all but 30 miles while Lockerbie to Blackburn isn't far short of 70 miles. Now, in the whole scheme of things this isn't that far to be asking teams to travel but, for the relative sizes of the clubs and their average supports, to expect over 1000 people to travel those distances really is pie in the sky. I can't remember the venues but the total travelling distances for the Thornton v Livingston final and, in particular, the Fauldhouse v Pumpherston final last season wouldn't have been anywhere near equivalent, hence it's much, much easier to encourage people who normally never go to travel to a one-off game.

[teamfinderscot]

Just thought for a big club like Musselburgh, Scottish cup at stake and also no other eos fixtures that day to my knowledge they would’ve been along backing, yes 30 miles is a fair distance and same for 70 for the opposition, but was disappointed as I expected it to be far busier. I’m also just stating my opinion which I’m entitled to as it’s a forum. Also I attended the livingston Thornton final and most fans were Thornton and Bathgate isn’t exactly next door. I totally agree on the point with pumpherston and fauldhouse though. Netherless good to see another non league team in the cup.

[GNU_Linux]

Speaking for myself I've lost a decent bit of enthusiasm for the Junior Cup. I'd go out on a limb & say that no-one from outside the west is winning the thing nor even making the final anytime soon. Someone made the point that it's now argueably harder to win the WOS Cup than the Junior Cup & I'd have to agree.

 

 

[Guest]

If junior clubs are willing to stay junior, based solely on the 'special feeling' they get from the junior cup and a fallacy that they will lose crowds by playing the same teams in the same league as part of the pyramid then I do genuinely give up. For years I've heard that junior football has that 'something different' to it. It really doesn't, no greater sense of community, no special place to play.... It's 11 vs 11 trying to put the ball in each others goals more than each other, to get 3 points or progress in a cup.