Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

23 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

"Structure would be agreed once final numbers are known (1st). If this is agreed (2nd), I'd expect the SFA would request a firm closing date for applications (3rd)."

The closing date has to be first.

I didn't expect my posts to be deconstructed and analysed.............

[Marshmallo]

1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

And there's the rub. There seem to be a few who doggedly hold to the view that junior football almost qualifies as a separate code of the game - not quite the difference between rugby league and union, but heading that way.

When pressed on what makes it different in substance they never have any real answer as to what makes it so in their minds beyond some nebulous Special Junior Feeling they derive from it.

It's the same number of players playing the same rules with the same object; to put the ball in the other team's net more often than they put it in yours.

Folk in Scotland think that "junior football" and "non league football" are identical synonyms. I've got pals (no laughing at the back) who go to watch Linlithgow, Bo'ness or Camelon who will refer to it as "the juniors" even though the teams have moved association. 

When these people hear "junior" they think terracing, being able to get a pint at half time, entry for a fiver, no segregation, local derbies, weans kicking a ball on the park at half time. When they hear "senior" they think stewards, 20 quid a ticket, plastic seats, having to travel up to the Highlands once a month for a league game.

Until that perception is ended then this will end up going round and round in circles and junior stalwarts will refuse to move because they think ticket prices will be forced to increase, they'll lose their derbies or the experience will become 'sanitised'. It seems daft to me but ultimately the people with these views are the people who will need to shift their clubs into the pyramid. 

Of course if the WRJFA were genuinely interested in pyramid integration they could ask a couple of guys from clubs in the East who made the move to come and speak at meetings to explain the differences, or lack thereof. The fact the WRJFA blazers haven't set anything like this up tells you everything about their motivations.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Marshmallo

[cmontheloknow]

4 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Folk in Scotland think that "junior football" and "non league football" are identical synonyms. I've got pals (no laughing at the back) who go to watch Linlithgow, Bo'ness or Camelon who will refer to it as "the juniors" even though the teams have moved association. 

When these people hear "junior" they think terracing, being able to get a pint at half time, entry for a fiver, no segregation, local derbies, weans kicking a ball on the park at half time. When they hear "senior" they think stewards, 20 quid a ticket, plastic seats, having to travel up to the Highlands once a month for a league game.

Until that perception is ended then this will end up going round and round in circles and junior stalwarts will refuse to move because they think ticket prices will be forced to increase, they'll lose their derbies or the experience will become 'sanitised'. It seems daft to me but ultimately the people with these views are the people who will need to shift their clubs into the pyramid. 

Of course if the WRJFA were genuinely interested in pyramid integration they could ask a couple of guys from clubs in the East who made the move to come and speak at meetings to explain the differences, or lack thereof. The fact the WRJFA blazers haven't set anything like this tells you everything about their motivations.

Hmmm...

 

[Pyramidic]

On 24/01/2020 at 14:31, Burnie_man said:

As I said a few days ago. the EoS will be backing the LL proposal of a new WoSFL at next weeks PWG, as will the SoS.   So unless the SFA try somehow to put a blocker on it to protect the SJFA, it will be up and running for next season with applications invited.   We already know that the SJFA will table "option Z" which will be rejected by the other three leagues.

So if the SFA are wanting to see tangible progress, rather than more delays, they allow the LL to go ahead and form the WoSFL and the three pyramid leagues will amend the tier 5/6 play-off regulations accordingly to include the new league..

Personally, with the three senior leagues backing it. I can't see the SFA putting blockers in as I doubt they want to be seen as stopping progress and it doesn't really affect them, unlike the blocker they put on SFA licencing. I guess we'll see next week, it'll either be major progress or more of nothing just like the previous 2 years. 

I really hope that Burnie_man is right and that the WoSFL gets off the ground for 2020/21. I just hope that the key WRJFA clubs can "see through the mist (or their self-created smog)" and recognise the importance of taking the lead in this new and very exciting project.   If they do not then I can foresee the likes of Bonnyton Thistle, Syngenta etc moving forward as the youth oriented clubs and other smaller progressive clubs steal a march on the traditional Juniors. In some ways this would be a great shame but on the other hand you cannot stop progess however loyal you are to a particular grade.

NB: Would Fauldhouse United be tempted to "go west" JC and join a Tier 6 WoSFL as opposed to a Tier 7/8 EoSFL?

[LongTimeLurker]

Given it's the LL that would be taking the lead on this, I'd be surprised if any West Lothian or Falkirk area clubs would fall under a new WoS setup as that's now established to be EoS territory. The application process is already open for south section ERSJFA clubs plus Scone Thistle and Tayport where the EoS is concerned and that would no doubt be part of the message to junior clubs from the LL on what happens next if Option Z falls by the wayside. The part that Burnie_man wasn't sure about in an earlier post was the rest of the north section ERSJFA as it sounded like there might be a boundary shift so that falls under the LL and EoS moving forward if the HL and LL decide they are not that bothered about that and it gets shifted presumably to keep Brechin and the Angus SPFL clubs happy.

Edited January 25, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Pyramidic]

Most workable Pyramids have a "middle area" where clubs are moved geographically (east or west in the Lowland example) to keep the numbers balanced. Fauldhouse United (and possibly Harthill Royal) could be in that position.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Pyramidic

[LongTimeLurker]

Not the way it is being done so far in a Scottish context. The German way of doing things (i.e fixed boundaries and relegating extra clubs further down the pyramid to even up the numbers) is what happens on the Club 42 playoff.

[FairWeatherFan]

There is no boundary other than the HL/LL. Everything is entirely dependent on what a league body is willing to accept as a member.

I doubt any boundary will be set between a WoS/EoS/SoS. Unless you're looking to force Bonnyton and Caledonian Braves (SoS) into the WoS. Who knows how the SoS or the clubs would feel about that.

A club from the East Region could certainly apply to a WoS. Doesn't mean they would be accepted.

[Pyramidic]

HibeeJibeee, Burnie_man and FairWeatherFan are in a much better position than me or LongTimeLurker to indicate whether in a balanced SFA Pyramid there is likely to be be any movement between WoSFL and EosFL clubs at Tier 6?

To my mind it makes a lot of sense to move clubs near the respective WoSFL / EoSFL boundaries to keep numbers equal.  In Falkirk and West Lothian this might affect Dunipace, Camelon, Harthill, Fauldhouse, Whitburn and Armadale and dare I say Syngenta (the last 5 of course currently being ERJFA clubs).

Edited January 25, 2020 by Pyramidic

[Jacksgranda]

9 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

I didn't expect my posts to be deconstructed and analysed.............

How long have you been posting on this thread?

Edited January 25, 2020 by Jacksgranda

[LongTimeLurker]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

...A club from the East Region could certainly apply to a WoS. Doesn't mean they would be accepted.

Given the ongoing hysterics from the LL and EoS over the idea of having two parallel feeders in the east it seems unlikely. Their vision clearly revolves around one east feeder, one west feeder and one south feeder.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Given the ongoing hysterics from the LL and EoS over the idea of having two parallel feeders in the east it seems unlikely. Their vision clearly revolves around one east feeder, one west feeder and one south feeder.

Hysterics is a new one.

Still doesn't need a defined boundary. The Lowland League rules set that the relegated team goes to an agreed league involved in the pyramid playoff agreement. That comes from the LL, SoS and EoS coming to an agreement. All you're doing is adding WoS to that agreement.

The only way to enter the pyramid then is through application to the WoS, EoS and SoS.

The majority of clubs from the West of Scotland that apply to the SoS or EoS would be rejected.

The majority of clubs from the East of Scotland that apply to the WoS or SoS would be rejected.

The majority of clubs from the South of Scotland that apply to the WoS or EoS would be rejected.

A Bonnyton Thistle could carry on in the SoS. A Fauldhouse United could play in the WoS if they decided to apply and were accepted. This is Scotland where Berwick Rangers and Tweedmouth Rangers play despite being from England. Where Gretna played in England for decades instead of Scotland. Rare anomalies can exist.

40 clubs in the EoSFL and 22 clubs in the East Region that are considered from the same area are not anomalies. That's competing leagues and not individual instances.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Given the ongoing hysterics from the LL and EoS over the idea of having two parallel feeders in the east it seems unlikely. Their vision clearly revolves around one east feeder, one west feeder and one south feeder.

Did we not say put the scatter gun away [emoji23]

 

Now there have been hysterics.....

 

Goodness me, now we need an East West boundary too......

 

[Burnie_man]

Given the ongoing hysterics from the LL and EoS over the idea of having two parallel feeders in the east it seems unlikely. Their vision clearly revolves around one east feeder, one west feeder and one south feeder.

Hysterics? Nice one.....

[Black & Red Socks]

Given the ongoing hysterics from the LL and EoS over the idea of having two parallel feeders in the east it seems unlikely. Their vision clearly revolves around one east feeder, one west feeder and one south feeder.

Which is an entirely clear and exactly how it should be vision. West clubs in the west, east clubs in the east, south clubs in.....well, you know how it goes. It’s not a difficult concept for anyone to grasp.

[LongTimeLurker]

The core SoS catchment has a population of around 150,000 and already has QoS, Stranraer, Annan, Gretna and Dalbeattie playing in higher tiers meaning there's not much left that isn't basically public park amateur sort of level.

There is nothing clear and logical about a three-way split on that basis when the other two envisaged catchments are an order of magnitude larger in population terms.

The rational way to do it with no overlapping feeders would be a straight two-way east-west split centred on Glasgow and Edinburgh as the two largest cities rather than a three-way one centred on Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dumfries.

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The core SoS catchment has a population of around 150,000 and already has QoS, Stranraer, Annan, Gretna and Dalbeattie playing in higher tiers meaning there's not much left that isn't basically public park amateur sort of level.

There is nothing clear and logical about a three-way split on that basis when the other two envisaged catchments are an order of magnitude larger in population terms.

The rational way to do it with no overlapping feeders would be a straight two-way east-west split centred on Glasgow and Edinburgh as the two largest cities rather than a three-way one centred on Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dumfries.

Yes, and that's probably something they'll look towards long term. Right now there is no Glasgow centred league.

[LongTimeLurker]

We'll be logical when it suits us on the ERSJFA and expedient when it suits us on the SoS, and apply rigid boundaries at the Tay bridge when it suits us, but suddenly not care about having boundaries when it suits us and any mention of the SJFA leads to this sort of thing:

even though all the SJFA actually really does is organise a national cup competition that is highly unlikely to remain intact for long in its current form once the clubs involved are in the pyramid.

Feel sorry for Rod Petrie. Explaining the advantages of Option Z to some of the people involved is probably as futile as explaining quantum physics to a goldfish.

[Junior Pub League]

13 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Given the ongoing hysterics from the LL and EoS over the idea of having two parallel feeders in the east it seems unlikely. Their vision clearly revolves around one east feeder, one west feeder and one south feeder.

Think.

Edit.

Reflect.

Go away and do something nice for 10 minutes.

Edit.

Post.

Then instead of your continual post-truth rants there may be an occasional post of merit and worth rather than your normal SJFA led hysteria. 

 

[Ped]

And if yous had embraced the pyramid at the start like the other leagues you would be able to make decisions to suit yourself not to suit a league who decides to join years later