Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

People do seem to forget that there was a directive from the SFA board for the PWG to facilitate SJFA entry.

Facilitate doesn't mean guarantee though does it. They agreed to try and find a way for the Juniors to enter the pyramid. If 18+ months of a stalemate shows that the SJFA can't enter, then it's time to move on to another solution.

Nobody has ever said that the SJFA are entering regardless, other than the SJFA of course.

If there was an SFA directive dictating the SJFA has to enter there wouldn't be 2 years of straw polls, a vote on a proposal, or a list of options for further dicussion.

 

[Jacksgranda]

22 minutes ago, wow-wee said:

We can all talk till we are blue in the face but we won't know anything until the end of the month and only then if they come out with the outcome of what was said or agreed.

Hasn't stopped the previous 952 pages...

[Tutankhamen]

11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The LL is already talking about having an LL2. If that was split into east and west sections and became the new tier 6, WRSJFA clubs could be invited to apply to fill 16 places for that, if more than that applied there could be an LL3 west etc. It's no different from the EoS adding extra conference divisions as a second tier to accomodate new members from the ERSJFA, basically.

We are the Borg you will be assimilated....

Fair play to the LL if that's reality rather than P&B talk.

[AlanCamelonfan]

6 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

Fair play to the LL if that's reality rather than P&B talk.

I think the lowland league 2 was a single division 

[FairWeatherFan]

22 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The LL is already talking about having an LL2. If that was split into east and west sections and became the new tier 6, WRSJFA clubs could be invited to apply to fill 16 places for that, if more than that applied there could be an LL3 west etc. It's no different from the EoS adding extra conference divisions as a second tier to accomodate new members from the ERSJFA, basically.

We are the Borg you will be assimilated....

LL2 has always been achievable within the constraints of the existing Lowland Pyramid play-off. It only references promotion to the SLFL and mentions no Tiers. That's a league organisation not a division.

A LL2 isn't going to happen without the approval of the EoS and SoS. So as long as they don't make a fuss then the SFA kind of have to go along with it.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

If the LL adds extra tiers with the goal of taking in all semi-professional clubs with enclosed grounds below whatever the boundary with the HL winds up being, the argument could be that pro/rel is no longer applicable anyway as any EoS or SoS club that wants to join can do so through application.

Edited January 23, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[glensmad]

Auchinleck Talbot have been often quoted as happy where they are and will only move if that's what others are doing. Clydebank are apparently snakebit. Pollok have concerns over floodlights and Kilwinning seem to feel there's too much work to be done at KSC.
Who's left that counts as a big club that would make a move into the unknown?
Seems most likely that the SFA or LL are going to have to promote a WoSFL alternative to end this neverending story.
 

I repeat once again though.

Floodlights and ground improvements wouldn't be needed for a West of Scotland League at tier 6.

[Dev]

2 hours ago, Dev said:

Well. If it comes down to a brand new league being formed, and it is the West of Scotland Senior League, its' start will probably be on the basis that clubs are invited to apply for membership i.e. as at the start of the Lowland League.

One thing which I believe can be relied upon is that the names of the applicants will be kept under wraps permanently, including names of clubs which are not accepted, and including clubs which do not follow through with their applications. Just like the formation of the Lowland League and that's how it should be - so don't wait for leaks from whoever organises such league!

It will be interesting to see if this new league does go ahead and if successful clubs will be able to keep the lid on their applications from P&B etc until the official announcement is made.

In other words applications will be confidential and will be kept this way by the league organisers. This way there's no way that clubs which apply can be pressurised or victimised.

Let's be clear about this. The new league organised outside the SJFA ain't happening as yet but the speculation mentioned in this thread refers to something of the sort surfacing after the PWG meeting of the 29th January - so we all will have to see if this idea actually surfaces then or later.

[FairWeatherFan]

16 minutes ago, glensmad said:

I repeat once again though.

Floodlights and ground improvements wouldn't be needed for a West of Scotland League at tier 6.

I know that and i'm all for clubs making the move. I don't actually run any of the clubs though. So I don't have to weigh up the same set of considerations.

Take Pollok and Kilwinning. You're in the West Premiership it provides a 30 game season against the biggest clubs in your region and that's basically the biggest in the West of Scotland outwith the SPFL. You've got the SJFA Junior Cup, West of Scotland Cup, and Sectionals to compete in. While the SJFA/West Region as a whole have a chance to enter the SFA pyramid intact.

A breakaway WoSFL in 2020-21 has nothing tangible to it. Neither club expect to get licenced in time for promotion to the Lowland League, so they're expecting to be there for at least two years. You don't know who else would be in the league, you don't how many games there would be, you don't know what cups you would compete in. South Region Challenge Cup certainly, maybe the Alba Cup against SoSFL clubs. The Alba Cup would mean two avenues to Scottish Cup entry in 2021-22 as a qualifier (WoSFL Champion or South/East Shield Winner).

I can see why they would wait for the PWG negotiations or someone else to start a WoSFL.

 

[parsforlife]

If the LL adds extra tiers with the goal of taking in all semi-professional clubs with enclosed grounds below whatever the boundary with the HL winds up being, the argument could be that pro/rel is no longer applicable anyway as any EoS or SoS club that wants to join can do so through application.

You need to stop with the bs that EoS/SoS can in anyway be taken out of negotiations, they can’t. They have a clear 3 way agreement with the LL over promotion/relegation to tier 5. That can’t be changed without agreement from all 3 parties.

[Guest]

You need to stop with the bs that EoS/SoS can in anyway be taken out of negotiations, they can’t. They have a clear 3 way agreement with the LL over promotion/relegation to tier 5. That can’t be changed without agreement from all 3 parties.

This. 100% accurate. Written in stone so to speak.

Whilst I admire your desire to continue correcting lurker it will most likely end with you banging your head, repeatedly, on a picture of a pyramid.

[Cameron Wilson]

This is frustrating isn't it? This thread is approaching 1,000 pages and the issue just rolls on and on, with new levels of misinformation and stupidity out there emerging at each critical juncture.

Personally think that at this point its harder and harder to deny the SFJA are not acting in good faith by proposing solutions which have already failed, and not doing more to inform its members of what joining the pyramid really means.

But I don't think a breakaway WOSL is the answer. Whilst it would move things forward, ultimately it would create a non-league divide in the one part of Scotland where one doesn't exist. The east has always had senior and junior options. This is why ultimately Kelty triggered a stampede to the pyramid which has mortally wounded the Junior game. In the north, there is a choice between the Highland League and North Juniors, but the HL always having been stronger so juniors going senior in the north was a natural progression. But in the west everyone is neatly under one league structure just waiting to be plugged in and switched on, simple as.

The Juniors days are clearly numbered. The SFJA knows this which is why they are being so obtuse. Any WSFL will only eventually end up having to absorb the dregs when the last remaining structures around the west juniors who didn't join the pyramid finally collapse.

There is a great opportunity for the SJFA to show leadership, preserve its legacy and still have some influence in the non-league game in the future by accepting that the East juniors is a busted flush and urging the rest of the east to join the EoS, whilst the entire west juniors enter the pyramid under its management. Once this happens, its like a jigsaw - its easier to complete once the bigger picture is more clear and there are less pieces left to fit in. So the north and Tayside would follow soon enough.

So, for the love of god, SJFA please just suck it up and get the west region in the pyramid as per the majority of its members' wishes.

[LongTimeLurker]

9 hours ago, parsforlife said:

You need to stop with the bs that EoS/SoS can in anyway be taken out of negotiations, they can’t. They have a clear 3 way agreement with the LL over promotion/relegation to tier 5. That can’t be changed without agreement from all 3 parties.

The rules for the playoff no longer appear to be accessible online. Does anyone have access to the actual text so we can check whether there is a specific mention of tier 5?

[Edit: found them]

http://slfl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Lower-Pyramid-play-off-rules-version-1.1.pdf

"Lower Pyramid Play-Off Competition"means the competition at the end of the season to determine which Club, if any, is to be relegated from theScottish Lowland Football League(“SLFL”)to the East of Scotland Football League("EoSFL") or the South of Scotland Football League("SoSFL”) and which Club, if any, is to be promoted from the EoSFLor the SoSFLto the SLFL;

I don't see anything about tier 5.

Edited January 24, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Guest]

It's inferred by Scottish lowland league genius [emoji856] because that is the recognised tier 5 in Scotland.

 

Please stop this is getting sore now.

 

 

[LongTimeLurker]

^^^The LL are already exploring the possibility of having an LL2 at the suggestion of Civil Service Strollers so they clearly don't see it as being about tier 5 rather than being about promotion into whatever is the lowest LL tier. If you read the text of the rules, it's even not clear that this playoff agreement would automatically preclude a separate agreement being made with the SJFA, if the LL were so inclined and agreed internally to open up a second relegation place, which means Gaz did have a point that the opposition of both the EoS and the LL was important last season.

[parsforlife]

12 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^The LL are already exploring the possibility of having an LL2 at the suggestion of Civil Service Strollers so they clearly don't see it as being about tier 5 rather than being about promotion into whatever is the lowest LL tier. If you read the text of the rules, it's even not clear that this playoff agreement would automatically preclude a separate agreement being made with the SJFA, if the LL were so inclined and agreed internally to open up a second relegation place, which means Gaz did have a point that the opposition of both the EoS and the LL was important last season.

The LL2 being explored ( which seems to have died a death btw) doesn't mean the LL don't recognize the agreement and acknowledge that a new agreement would need put in place should they change structure.

Edited January 24, 2020 by parsforlife

[LongTimeLurker]

Try actually reading the rules. They have clearly been deliberately been drafted to provide the LL with lots of future flexibility. These sections for example:

i) A club which is found to have infringed these Pyramid Play-Off Rules, may be ordered to replay the Pyramid Play-Off Match in question, ata time and venue and subject to whatever conditions (including as to allocation and/or indemnification of financial benefits and liabilities) as deemed appropriate by SLFL board in its absolute discretion;

c) notwithstanding the terms above, the SLFLhas the power to investigate any matter pursuant to the operation of the Pyramid Play-Off Competitiond) No appeals shall be permissible from a SLFLdecision inrelation to an infringement of these Pyramid Play-Off Rules.

d) No appeals shall be permissible from a SLFLdecision inrelation to an infringement of these Pyramid Play-Off Rules.

and this:

e) In the event that neither the Champion Club of the EoSFLnor of the SoSFLcomplies with the Membership Criteria(By 31stMarch each year)in circumstances where it is required to do so as the Candidate Club in terms of the SLFLRules, and the SLFLBoard has not granted any waiver, relaxationor period of grace in respect of both Clubs' requirement to comply with the relevant part of the Membership Criteria, there will be no lower Pyramid Play-Off Competition at the end of the relevant Season and the relevant clubin the SLFLwill retain its place in the SLFLin the immediately succeeding Season.

[parsforlife]

this is getting ridiculous,  you're twisting absolutely everything.  Your using rules that deal with neither league having a licenced champion or clubs playing illegible players to argue that the play-off agreement can just be chucked out, utter madness   

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Try actually reading the rules. They have clearly been deliberately been drafted to provide the LL with lots of future flexibility. These sections for example:

i) A club which is found to have infringed these Pyramid Play-Off Rules, may be ordered to replay the Pyramid Play-Off Match in question, ata time and venue and subject to whatever conditions (including as to allocation and/or indemnification of financial benefits and liabilities) as deemed appropriate by SLFL board in its absolute discretion;

c) notwithstanding the terms above, the SLFLhas the power to investigate any matter pursuant to the operation of the Pyramid Play-Off Competitiond) No appeals shall be permissible from a SLFLdecision inrelation to an infringement of these Pyramid Play-Off Rules.

d) No appeals shall be permissible from a SLFLdecision inrelation to an infringement of these Pyramid Play-Off Rules.

and this:

e) In the event that neither the Champion Club of the EoSFLnor of the SoSFLcomplies with the Membership Criteria(By 31stMarch each year)in circumstances where it is required to do so as the Candidate Club in terms of the SLFLRules, and the SLFLBoard has not granted any waiver, relaxationor period of grace in respect of both Clubs' requirement to comply with the relevant part of the Membership Criteria, there will be no lower Pyramid Play-Off Competition at the end of the relevant Season and the relevant clubin the SLFLwill retain its place in the SLFLin the immediately succeeding Season.

You are actually making yourself less believable pricey.

[ian44wood]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

You are actually making yourself less believable pricey.

Pricey senior lol