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Burnie_man

Junior football, what is the future?

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2 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Clearly it is daft to ignore the quantifiable success of other countries and believe that we've got it right and they're wrong.  16 v 50 is quite some margin.  

I suspect that the comparative success of football in Denmark, like the country in general, is to do with a more equitable and fairer distribution of wealth from the top level down to grassroots with emphasis on youth, facilities and community development instead of having pressure to invest heavily in first team football just to survive in the league.

Maybe they wouldn't spend over four grand travelling the length of the country for two pointless first team league matches, because they will recognise that the money could be better spent on other things locally.

Evidently the overall structure works because the kids develop well enough to be sought after by clubs across Europe at an early age, as you point out.

Also you have shown that their top Division has no Danish internationals playing in it, yet still the clubs outperform Scotland in its European co-efficient.  All we have in that context is Rangers and Celtic - two hugely wealthy clubs compared to the rest - the gap between richest and poorest in this country is phenomenal.  

I've not delved into it deeper but Croatia, a smaller nation than Scotland has every youth coach as a paid coach and go through courses to make sure they are up to standard.
Cant remember when this started but think I heard it was 10 years ago, maybe less. A country smaller than Scotland in population but far outreaching the standard of quality that we have in Scotland and showing with their countries national fortunes.   I will say that in every division right through to district the champions are all promoted and the bottom placed team are relegated and in most cases the runners up of the league play the 2nd bottom of the higher league in playoff to see who go into the higher league next season. Not of this crap, play off to have playoff to see who played Scottish 2nd division bottom team.  If this was similar system to Croatia, then the 'Scottish division two team' who finishes bottom would be relegated, no matter who they are.  Not of this institution shite.

 

I have to say, I was at a West junior cup final watching Pollok win 3.1 and some of our Pollok U19s lads where in the team and the game was at shettleston's ground and the wee brick hole for the dignitaries, you should have seen them, thinking they wur fat cats , smoking cigars.  two young lads where sitting on the wall beside then and they told them to get out as if they are untouchable. that's what is wrong with our football, too many people thinking its about them and their power.

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread

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6 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

30 months and 938 pages later, things don't seem to have changed much.

Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme choise.

The only way out of the impasse is for one major west region club to make a move happen, and I suspect others would follow.

strange that only dunipace have done anything, and Clydebank haven’t followed up.

 

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17 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Scotland FIFA rankings september 2007 #14, October 2007 #13, November 2007 #14, December 2007 #14, January 2008 #14, February 2008 #14, March 2008 #14, April 2008 #15, May 2008 #15

If Scotland was within the Top 16 in the WORLD for so long, we clearly were one of the 16 best European countries and qualified for Euro 2008.

Pointing to the professional league structure isn't the answer to the question, its looking at the youth structure. Training facilities, coaching, culture.

By the way. Denmark actually has 50 clubs playing nationally unlike our 42. The 3rd Tier Second Division isn't regionalised. Its in Groups, a bit like the EoS Conferences. Otherwise 8 of the 24 clubs would be in the same Division while others are crossing more than half the country.

image.png.a61c5bea50c9e9d92fc9d4bec604f5ac.png

As for doing better in Europe current standings has Scotland has a grand total difference in coeffiecients as 0.675. Scotland still has 2 clubs in Europe and Denmark only one.

image.png.fb48201c22ede7859e32af934c692c04.png

And for 2021 Scotland is currently ahead of Denmark when the 2015-16 season drops off.

image.png.79c7b15956270729087cee765c98f687.png

And while  Copenhagen and FC Midtjylland don't have a ton of Danish internationals in their squads. They sure do pack their squads with foreigners from all over.

Copenhagen:

image.png.96f5a71bc687c48d892c85433899b0f1.png

FC Midtjylland

image.png.e30cbd3b9fb8c8a0261b7a4627d03df7.png

 

 

Struggling to cope with that bombardment of information -  But thanks nonetheless, it is interesting! 

The example on your map is T3 and was changed from and East Pool and a West pool in 2016. 

T4 is The Denmark Series and it is regional, which is split into in 4 groups of 10: G1 and G2 are in Zealand (East of the country: Copenhagen / Roskilde);  G3  is in the West (Odense / Kolding / Esbjerg); G4 is in Jutland (north-west, Aalborg, Aarhus). 

https://uk.soccerway.com/national/denmark/denmarksserien/20192020/group-1/r54993/

Not too dissimilar to what I have indicated for Scotland (only I've got 16 teams in each regional league), and I think they have 4 promotion spots from the Series.

We'll just have to disagree on the significance of league structure - I think radical change and a more fluid system is vital. 

In Scotland we have a straight column for the top 4 tiers.  Whereas  in the Danish example it spreads out, in the shape of a pyramid.  Its strength is in the base, a foundation, which is broad (and de-centralised).

Not sure what the relevance of the 2007 rankings is, but looking at actual results is painful: we've not been to a World Cup since 1998.  Denmark got to the QF at that one and subsequently qualified in 2002, 2010 and 2018.

I agree that continuing to focus investment on the youth structure and facilities is key.  Hopefully our young players can aspire to travel abroad to learn at a young age, and we'll have a national team full of Andy Robertson inspired players at Leicester / Milan / Chelsea / Spurs / Dortmund / Valencia instead of Wigan / Sunderland / Sheff Wed / Sheff Utd / Derby / Kilmarnock and so on.

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2 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Out of interest why not? Dundee to Wick doesn't take that much longer than Aberdeen to Wick. About 4½ hours. It's a trip I do regularly. It'd only be once a season. The HFL teams manage this fine...

Because for a game of league football at this level it would be a complete waste of time, energy and money (which is scarce, and valuable).  Just pointless - hardly anyone would want to go, not even the players. 

Ask Lochee and Broughty to join the pyramid with a trip to Wick dangling as a carrot? No thanks.

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Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme choise.

The only way out of the impasse is for one major west region club to make a move happen, and I suspect others would follow.

strange that only dunipace have done anything, and Clydebank haven’t followed up.

 

Bankies wont be the club to make a move, last time we put our head above the parapet the powers that be tried to interfere with matters which would have probably put us out of business. Given that I wouldnt expect our board to do that, something I entirely understand and respect. That said I think the LL west and east has about as much chance of succeeding as a Donald Trump led business proposal.

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2 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Bankies wont be the club to make a move, last time we put our head above the parapet the powers that be tried to interfere with matters which would have probably put us out of business. Given that I wouldnt expect our board to do that, something I entirely understand and respect. That said I think the LL west and east has about as much chance of succeeding as a Donald Trump led business proposal.

There's less venom in a king cobra than there is in some of these poundshop blazers.

Edited by cmontheloknow

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8 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Because for a game of league football at this level it would be a complete waste of time, energy and money (which is scarce, and valuable).  Just pointless - hardly anyone would want to go, not even the players. 

Ask Lochee and Broughty to join the pyramid with a trip to Wick dangling as a carrot? No thanks.

In the Lowland League we'd be facing trips to Dalbeattie & Gretna, they're not much closer than Wick. And more than 2 divisions at the highest regionalised level will never happen. I'd like to see a comparison for travel for us in the HL compared to the LL. And then especially if the bottom 2 in the HL drop out & get replaced by Banks o'Dee, Broughty & ourselves, which wouldn't be unlikely if the pyramid happens in the north (assuming the HL will go back to 18).

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26 minutes ago, Marten said:

In the Lowland League we'd be facing trips to Dalbeattie & Gretna, ...

Under Option Z they are in the LL West catchment, while Lochee United are in the LL East catchment.

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Under Option Z they are in the LL West catchment.

Option Z has absolutely zero chance of happening. The Lowland League has no appetite for this and they are never going to reduce their chances of promotion up the way for the sake of the SJFA who have talked down at them through the whole process. 

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I would caution that those who are all but promoting Option Z as this years “done deal” – those promoting it by default on here with what they believe is their forensic examination of some rather dubious ‘facts’ and those who, apparently, are promoting it in meetings and elsewhere as having the backing of both the SFA and the LL – might end up helping put at risk once again the WRSJFA in its entirety walking through the open door of Tier 6/7/8/9 entry. Those holding open that door, the LL and the EoSFL, could just as easily take what would appear to be the continuing antipathy of the SJFA as a final provocation and decide that it’s time to simply let it swing shut and open another one, perhaps by doing what has previously been mooted and proposing to set-up up a WoSFL and inviting applicants? This, ultimately, would offer a much simpler and clearer way forward with those WRSJFA clubs who wish access to the Pyramid and to the wider Scottish game applying and those who wish to remain in Junior football doing just that.

 

As has always been the case, this would continue to leave ERSJFA clubs south of the Tay with an open route into the Pyramid via application to the EoSFL. North of Tay ERSJFA clubs merging with the NRSJFA clubs and providing a Tier 6 feeder to the HL seems an eminently sensible solution to me, particularly as these clubs already compete against each other in a district cup competition without [any?] issues.

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10 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

It was explained to me from 4 different members of 4 different west junior teams who were at Thursdays meeting that a west region management member stated to them that Option Z is backed by the SFA and Lowland league so that is the best one to go for.  I do not believe this for one minute that the Lowland league and SFA would back Option Z, why, what have they to gain?

The SFA provided it as an option so are known to see it as a feasible way ahead under certain circumstances. Think it was the SPFL that was being claimed as backing it along with the LL. This is how I responded to Burnie_man on this topic yesterday:

16 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Have explained why I think a lot of LL clubs might turn out to be be OK with a split. Fear of future relegation and loss of status long term. Easier to be 1 of 32 than 1 of 16. Think the clubs based in the west would also very much welcome games against Talbot and Pollok rather than Vale of Leithen and Gala. Where the SPFL is concerned what the LL East and LL West would do is get the best fifteen or so junior and recent ex-junior EoS clubs into tier 5 straight away rather than one at a time over the next fifteen years creating stronger leagues to be relegated into and hence a softer crash landing.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Because for a game of league football at this level it would be a complete waste of time, energy and money (which is scarce, and valuable).  Just pointless - hardly anyone would want to go, not even the players. 

Ask Lochee and Broughty to join the pyramid with a trip to Wick dangling as a carrot? No thanks.

But a trip to gretna would be

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56 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The SFA provided it as an option so are known to see it as a feasible way ahead under certain circumstances. Think it was the SPFL that was being claimed as backing it along with the LL. This is how I responded to Burnie_man on this topic yesterday:

The LL have already met, and rejected the suggestion of splitting. They have no interest in option Z.  It was a Petrie brain fart and only Petrie, not SFA or SPFL policy.

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1 hour ago, 12 Angry Men said:

I would caution that those who are all but promoting Option Z as this years “done deal” – those promoting it by default on here with what they believe is their forensic examination of some rather dubious ‘facts’ and those who, apparently, are promoting it in meetings and elsewhere as having the backing of both the SFA and the LL – might end up helping put at risk once again the WRSJFA in its entirety walking through the open door of Tier 6/7/8/9 entry. Those holding open that door, the LL and the EoSFL, could just as easily take what would appear to be the continuing antipathy of the SJFA as a final provocation and decide that it’s time to simply let it swing shut and open another one, perhaps by doing what has previously been mooted and proposing to set-up up a WoSFL and inviting applicants? This, ultimately, would offer a much simpler and clearer way forward with those WRSJFA clubs who wish access to the Pyramid and to the wider Scottish game applying and those who wish to remain in Junior football doing just that.

 

As has always been the case, this would continue to leave ERSJFA clubs south of the Tay with an open route into the Pyramid via application to the EoSFL. North of Tay ERSJFA clubs merging with the NRSJFA clubs and providing a Tier 6 feeder to the HL seems an eminently sensible solution to me, particularly as these clubs already compete against each other in a district cup competition without [any?] issues.

 

Don't rule out the possibility of an independent West of Scotland Football League at tier 6 for next season.

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9 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Because for a game of league football at this level it would be a complete waste of time, energy and money (which is scarce, and valuable).  Just pointless - hardly anyone would want to go, not even the players. 

Ask Lochee and Broughty to join the pyramid with a trip to Wick dangling as a carrot? No thanks.

That's not an explanation, mate.

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Just now, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:


Cant see it happening.

You may be surprised.  It doesn't need SJFA buy-in, and provides west Juniors with a choice.  Neither does it rely on west clubs having to do all the leg work in setting it up.

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You may be surprised.  It doesn't need SJFA buy-in, and provides west Juniors with a choice.  Neither does it rely on west clubs having to do all the leg work in setting it up.

You’d never convince 12 clubs by the end of the season and the sfa/sjfa seem incapable of holding meetings less than months apart so the timescales involved make it highly unlikely. Im not against the idea personally but like a LLW and LLE i can’t see it happening.

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