Junior football, what is the future?

[Che Dail]

10 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

So ball park figure the 10 League Two clubs make in excess of 600k.

Do you seriously think 64 clubs playing regionally can even touch that figure? Let alone make more than that?

 

How exactly do they 'make' that?  Presumably it trickles down from sponsorship (Ladbrokes) and from the share of the SFA profit (Club Licensing).  The pot exists, but how it is apportioned would be re-calibrated to continue to reward the top level T4 clubs.  And it is only 6 L2 clubs, not 10 - so going by your figures £360k.  In any case  LL and HL clubs already earn appearance money for the Betfred Cup and Challenge Cup.

And what do they spend the money on?  Mostly on footballers wages, all on full professional contracts - so cloth gets cut accordingly.

Take Cowdenbeath to Elgin - that's more or less a 12 hour shift for 20 players and coaching staff.  Assuming minimum wage at ave £7.50ph plus other overheads (eg Bus = £500?) that one fixture will cost the club about £2300, only to go all the way back again another day to do it all over.  That money is being unnecessarily wasted - very little value added - cash disappearing for nothing, lost to the game.

Your £60k divided by 36 games is just under £1700 'subsidy' per league match if you look at it that way, or only about 20% of turnover for some clubs at this level.  There's still a lot of work to do if the club is shelling out £130-£180k on wages, tax, national insurance etc. 

Not to mention the environmental impact caused by the masses travelling in their 4x4s to watch these games, but that's another story.

 

 

 

[Burnie_man]

7 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

The suggested leagues are laughable as well. The likes of Stirling Albion and Brechin get crowds of 500 at £14 ahead. You've got them in a league playing some sides that will be lucky to get over 100 paying a lot less.
 

500? hmmm.......and there are clubs already in the LL with crowds of less than 100 as Berwick and ES are finding out, and Stirling may find out soon.  It's not a reason not to regionalise, but it won't happen anytime soon for the reasons given.

[Che Dail]

15 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

The SPFL only wanted one feeder league at tier 5 and you are proposing 4? Scotland's a small country we don't need a 4 way split at tier 5. If clubs are struggling with that then they should be nowhere near tier 5.

The suggested leagues are laughable as well. The likes of Stirling Albion and Brechin get crowds of 500 at £14 ahead. You've got them in a league playing some sides that will be lucky to get over 100 paying a lot less.

There is no need to regionalise SPFL2 the fans don't want it and the clubs don't want it.
 

It is 2 feeders: Highland League and Lowland League, exactly the same number as it is now.

Brechin are at the bottom of the league and could be relegated - if folk are willing to pay £14 for that well good luck to them but it is completely irrelevant. 

If they drop to the Lowland League (by some fluke, instead of HFL as  per the current rules), they will visit Innerleithen, Gretna and Dalbeattie, plus Peffermill Playing Fields to see Edinburgh Uni. They'll be doing well to get 100 at some of those games.

Alternatively:  Wick on a Tuesday night brrrrr...

Edited January 20, 2020 by Che Dail

[AlanCamelonfan]

22 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^Just so nobody gets taken in by this, I did no such thing last year. I was one of the first people to post about the LL playoff rule and its implications and tried to explain it to Clydebank and Lochee United supporters when they were pushing the done deal narrative as I could see where things were heading. I also posted about how there was nothing in the SFA constitution about "board directives". If the LL splits or is split the LL playoff rule is probably no longer a factor so Option Z is not a rerun of what happened last year.

Yes it is. And what you going to do when you are proved wrong AGAIN use another alias

[LongTimeLurker]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You also wanted the ERJFA in at tier 6 for this season, and were left disappointed.  Now you're trumpeting a plan that sees ERJFA (what's left of it) in at tier 7 with a boundary move and a LL split.

As far as I am aware Option Z has the ERSJFA in at tier 6. It's one of the other three options involving a single LL that has them in at tier 7. Beyond that what you are leaving out is that I expressed the opinion that I thought the EoS would quickly obliterate the ERSJFA in the east if there were two feeders initially and that the SJFA would soon become as relevant as the Forfarshire FA once a fully integrated pyramid is up and running.  

[Burnie_man]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

As far as I am aware Option Z has the ERSJFA in at tier 6. It's one of the other three options involving a single LL that has them in at tier 7. Beyond that what you are leaving out is that I expressed the opinion that I thought the EoS would quickly obliterate the ERSJFA in the east if there were two feeders initially and that the SJFA would soon become as relevant as the Forfarshire FA once a fully integrated pyramid is up and running.  

The EoS won't "obliterate" anyone.  If ERJFA was allowed to enter at tier 6  ((I meant 6, not 7), their members will stick where they are and we'll have two competing leagues in the same area for the foreseeable future, with potentially clubs switching between the two in search of an easier passage to the level above.  Madness of course but we know that already, and we know already the EoS won't back any proposal that contains it.

The only suggestion I can see the EoS clubs providing favourable feedback on is the one where the West moves into the Pyramid itself next season.  We already know that the EoS don't have any objections to that.   However, it appears the WRJFA/ERJFA don't want it.

The EoS are more keen to see the West in, than the West are............

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

...The only suggestion I can see the EoS clubs providing favourable feedback on is the one where the West moves into the Pyramid itself next season.  We already know that the EoS don't have any objections to that.   However, it appears the WRJFA/ERJFA don't want it.

The EoS are more keen to see the West in, than the West are............

Agree that's what the EoS will no doubt go far, but if everybody else including the north and east regions are OK with Option Z there is probably no need for a complete consensus for it to happen. If there are fully separate LL East and LL West leagues launching the playoff rules for the LL are no longer applicable because the LL doesn't exist any more at that point. The EoS and ERSJFA can then be offered the chance to decide whether they want to be feeders to the new LL East. Option Z is a way to hit the reset button and start again in other words. What the west only option really needed to be strongly in the running for next year was for the north and east regions to say "Get this pyramid thing tae ****". It was looking like that might happen at one point.

[Jack Burton]

It is 2 feeders: Highland League and Lowland League, exactly the same number as it is now.
Brechin are at the bottom of the league and could be relegated - if folk are willing to pay £14 for that well good luck to them but it is completely irrelevant. 
If they drop to the Lowland League (by some fluke, instead of HFL as  per the current rules), they will visit Innerleithen, Gretna and Dalbeattie, plus Peffermill Playing Fields to see Edinburgh Uni. They'll be doing well to get 100 at some of those games.
Alternatively:  Wick on a Tuesday night brrrrr...

You have 4 leagues at tier 4.

Of course the crowds and entry price are relevant. There is a huge disparity in the clubs you've lumped together.

The LL is still a huge drop off for league clubs but the LL is getting stronger every season. Ideally in another 5 years we would have the best of the LL, East and West juniors plus teams relegated from SPFL2 all in the one league. At that point I could see promotion to SPFL2 being opened up more. Instead of diluting the quality by splitting the LL into two leagues.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Agree that's what the EoS will no doubt go far, but if everybody else including the north and east regions are OK with Option Z there is probably no need for a complete consensus for it to happen. If there are fully separate LL East and LL West leagues launching the playoff rules for the LL are no longer applicable because the LL doesn't exist any more at that point. The EoS and ERSJFA can then be offered the chance to decide whether they want to be feeders to the new LL East. Option Z is a way to hit the reset button and start again in other words. What the west only option really needed to be strongly in the running for next year was for the north and east regions to say "Get this pyramid thing tae ****". It was looking like that might happen at one point.

But it's very unlikely to happen for a whole host of reasons already discussed.  The LL isn't going to stop existing and they aren't going to go through major upheaval solely for the purpose of accommodating west Junior clubs. Do you truly believe the SPFL will be OK with three feeders? do you believe that the likes of Brechin or Stirling or Stenny want to drop into one of 3 regional feeders as opposed to 2?

I would also ponder the view that all parties who signed up to the LL play-off arrangements would also need to sign-up to scrapping it just as much to altering it, and would need to sign up to a process of how to relegate clubs to ERJFA and EoS.

[Che Dail]

15 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

You have 4 leagues at tier 4.

Of course the crowds and entry price are relevant. There is a huge disparity in the clubs you've lumped together.

The LL is still a huge drop off for league clubs but the LL is getting stronger every season. Ideally in another 5 years we would have the best of the LL, East and West juniors plus teams relegated from SPFL2 all in the one league. At that point I could see promotion to SPFL2 being opened up more. Instead of diluting the quality by splitting the LL into two leagues.

Looking at the diagram it is : One club up from the blue bit, and one club up for the yellow bit.

And on the 'roadmap', it is set out to occur after  3 years, with clubs indicated for now, for illustration purposes, according to their current standings.

There may be a disparity right now between the Dundee & Aberdeen clubs and the other HFL sides, but then the same could have been said by Berwick and East Stirling before they dropped into the LL - a bit of initial snobbery no doubt, but that's their level now and it isn't an easy league.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Che Dail

[Dunning1874]

24 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

It is 2 feeders: Highland League and Lowland League, exactly the same number as it is now.

You’re advocating splitting the HL & LL in two at their top tiers. Regardless of all four divisions coming under the HL & LL umbrellas you want four divisions, therefore that is four feeders.

Your plan of having four 16 team divisions rather than two feeding into one 12 team league means you’d have 64 teams at one level competing for 1.5 promotion places. That’s clearly unworkable and undesirable and why you need to gradually regionalise rather than going directly from national leagues to a four way split.

The current position of 33 teams at the highest regional tier wouldn’t be ideal even if they had one guaranteed promotion spot rather than just a playoff spot to play for. With two divisions totalling 32 teams at the highest regional level you would ideally want two automatic places at a minimum, but you’re advocating double the number of teams with only one automatic place. That would be insane.

This same logic is one of many reasons why the Option Z plan is obviously a nonsense at this stage as well. Adding a third Tier 5 league when the two leagues currently at that level are only playing for a playoff place for promotion just isn’t practical at all. There is absolutely no prospect of that being agreed to and the only remotely realistic solution at the moment is for the West to enter at Tier 6.

An East/West Lowland split at some point in the future could be something to work towards, but anyone who believes it’s workable to jump directly to that from where we are now is entirely detached from reality.

[Burnie_man]

14 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

The LL is still a huge drop off for league clubs but the LL is getting stronger every season. Ideally in another 5 years we would have the best of the LL, East and West juniors plus teams relegated from SPFL2 all in the one league. At that point I could see promotion to SPFL2 being opened up more. Instead of diluting the quality by splitting the LL into two leagues.

Do you think it likely that SPFL2 clubs would agree to a LL split and therefore 3 feeders? 

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

An East/West Lowland split at some point in the future could be something to work towards, but anyone who believes it’s workable to jump directly to that from where we are now is entirely detached from reality.

Yip.

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

...The LL isn't going to stop existing and they aren't going to go through major upheaval solely for the purpose of accommodating west Junior clubs. Do you truly believe the SPFL will be OK with three feeders? do you believe that the likes of Brechin or Stirling or Stenny want to drop into one of 3 regional feeders as opposed to 2?...

Have explained why I think a lot of LL clubs might turn out to be be OK with a split. Fear of future relegation and loss of status long term. Easier to be 1 of 32 than 1 of 16. Think the clubs based in the west would also very much welcome games against Talbot and Pollok rather than Vale of Leithen and Gala. Where the SPFL is concerned what the LL East and LL West would do is get the best fifteen or so junior and recent ex-junior EoS clubs into tier 5 straight away rather than one at a time over the next fifteen years creating stronger leagues to be relegated into and hence a softer crash landing.

[Che Dail]

39 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

You’re advocating splitting the HL & LL in two at their top tiers. Regardless of all four divisions coming under the HL & LL umbrellas you want four divisions, therefore that is four feeders.

Your plan of having four 16 team divisions rather than two feeding into one 12 team league means you’d have 64 teams at one level competing for 1.5 promotion places. That’s clearly unworkable and undesirable and why you need to gradually regionalise rather than going directly from national leagues to a four way split.

The current position of 33 teams at the highest regional tier wouldn’t be ideal even if they had one guaranteed promotion spot rather than just a playoff spot to play for. With two divisions totalling 32 teams at the highest regional level you would ideally want two automatic places at a minimum, but you’re advocating double the number of teams with only one automatic place. That would be insane.

This same logic is one of many reasons why the Option Z plan is obviously a nonsense at this stage as well. Adding a third Tier 5 league when the two leagues currently at that level are only playing for a playoff place for promotion just isn’t practical at all. There is absolutely no prospect of that being agreed to and the only remotely realistic solution at the moment is for the West to enter at Tier 6.

An East/West Lowland split at some point in the future could be something to work towards, but anyone who believes it’s workable to jump directly to that from where we are now is entirely detached from reality.

The point of it is to look 3 years ahead, which is why I've said "roadmap" over 3 seasons.

At the moment there is 1 possible promotion place available for 34 teams. (2.9% of the clubs). What I propose is for there to be 2 (ideally 3) out of 64, a higher percentage (3.1%).

And that is 2 more than most of the clubs have ever had. At the moment, there is no prospect of promotion for Junior clubs.

It is not reasonable to expect Lochee and Carnoustie to play n the same league as Wick.

I think the first step is towards something like this is getting the dundee and Aberdeen juniors in a league together, and the west juniors feeding into the LL. How it transpires after that is up for grabs.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Che Dail

[Dunning1874]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Do you think it likely that SPFL2 clubs would agree to a LL split and therefore 3 feeders? 

Not a chance. Even aside from the promotion places argument, where assuming it remains at one playoff spot at first it’ll be harder to get back up with no less risk of relegation in the first place, clubs want to play nationally rather than regionally.* Dropping into an even smaller region than they would currently surely appeals to none of them.

*This does make Brechin and other Angus clubs complaining about the Highland League because of the travel rather silly.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Have explained why I think a lot of LL clubs might turn out to be be OK with a split. Fear of future relegation and loss of status long term. Easier to be 1 of 32 than 1 of 16. Think the clubs based in the west would also very much welcome games against Talbot and Pollok rather than Vale of Leithen and Gala. Where the SPFL is concerned what the LL East and LL West would do is get the best fifteen or so junior and recent ex-junior EoS clubs into tier 5 straight away rather than one at a time over the next fifteen years creating stronger leagues to be relegated into and hence a softer crash landing.

It's harder to get relegated out of a  single 16 team LL league where there is still the possibility of no relegation at all, or in all likelihood only one, with one good club promoted per season.  In the East, all of a sudden Gala, Edin Uni, Dalbeattie and VoL are in a league with Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Tranent, Camelon, Dundonald etc dropped in to plug the gap with say at least two down/up with the EoS Premier, and suddenly their future's don't look as rosy.

The SPFL clubs won't vote for it either as things currently stand, as several posters above have expanded on.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Not a chance. Even aside from the promotion places argument, where assuming it remains at one playoff spot at first it’ll be harder to get back up with no less risk of relegation in the first place, clubs want to play nationally rather than regionally.* Dropping into an even smaller region than they would currently surely appeals to none of them.

*This does make Brechin and other Angus clubs complaining about the Highland League because of the travel rather silly.

Agree.

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

...The SPFL clubs won't vote for it either as things currently stand, as several posters above have expanded on.

It remains to be seen whether they even get a vote. It may be a matter for the SPFL board like the colts team in the Challenge Cup was, which went down about as well as a school of piranhas in a jacuzzi with the fans of the smaller clubs. Something worth trawling through the SPFL constitution to investigate.

[Burnie_man]

Can we all just remember that "option Z" is only a suggestion, most likely a Petrie brain fart to stir debate (it's worked).   It's has no SFA backing as things stand, it's a debating point to take into the next PWG meeting (along with the other three suggestions).