Junior football, what is the future?

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

There's nothing rational in splitting at this point without any further promotion spots being available to the SPFL, ...

If the top west superleague clubs get licensed and start being promoted into the LL along with Bo'ness, Lithgae etc, how long until Spartans, EKFC, BSC and Civil Service Strollers are relegation strugglers? There's a reason why the topic of LL2 was being raised at LL general meetings last season. An east-west split is a form of LL2 that gives more of the current membership a legitimate shot at hanging around long term so that they are usually one unusually good season away from the SPFL.

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The LL clubs rejected a second relegation place at their 2018 AGM after the mass defection of ERSJFA clubs to the EoS. Turkeys don't vote for an early Christmas and there is no guarantee that would change with WRSJFA entry at tier 6. If anything that would simply lead to even more frightened turkeys.

 

2018 AGM was the 29th May.

Weeks before the SFA had imposed a moratorium on licensing applications.

Geared up the PWG again saying the SJFA had asked to enter. First meeting of which would be in September.

We're a week or two away from the EoS having their agm. So no one knows what they were doing format wise etc.

Looks like an absolute mess at the time with no one knowing what was going to happen. You really think they were just going to throw open a 2nd spot with all that going on?

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If the top west superleague clubs get licensed and start being promoted into the LL along with Bo'ness, Lithgae etc, how long until Spartans, EKFC, BSC and Civil Service Strollers are relegation strugglers? There's a reason why the topic of LL2 was being raised at LL general meetings last season. An east-west split is a form of LL2 that gives more of the current membership a legitimate shot at hanging around long term so that they are usually one unusually good season away from the SPFL.

One club per season.  I think there's a lot of smaller clubs near the bottom of the LL before the likes of Spartans, BSC, EK are even in danger, if at all.   They're looking upwards, not downwards.

The fact is, a LL West and LL East may well come through time (it probably should), once the West have 20+ Licenced clubs already in the Pyramid, once the SPFL start talking more relegation spots, once the SPFL clubs themselves get their head around more relegation spots and further regionalisation at tier 5.  Brechin's concerns should tell you that.

It's not going to happen all at the one time.

[LongTimeLurker]

10 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Not possible, sorry. Only one team would be able to be promoted per season to the proposed new LL West, and only if they have a licence. So it would be impossible for all three to be promoted to that proposed league by the end of next season, even if they were all good enough to win the Premiership and have a licence in place.

There are only 6 LL clubs from the west catchment currently (and that includes BSC who are currently in Alloa). That provide ten vacancies to be filled by west region junior clubs at launch in 2021-22 (only if it happens obviously), if they can get audited for licensing by Feb 2021. Your own club should be in with a shout on that as I think you would tick most of the boxes given the way your ground is a relatively recent build. After that happens it would then be a case of a limited number of promotion places for future entry after that.

Edited January 17, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[glensmad]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

There are only 6 LL clubs from the west catchment currently (and that includes BSC who are currently in Alloa). That provide ten vacancies to be filled by west region junior clubs at launch in 2021-22 (only if it happens obviously), if they can get licensed by Feb 2021. Your own club should be in with a shout on that as I think you would tick most of the boxes given the way your ground is a relatively recent build. After that happens it would then be a case of a limited number of promotion places for future entry after that.

The proposal supposedly agreed last night was not for current junior clubs to form part of the LL West at tier 5. It was for the West Region clubs to form the feeder in to the tier 5 LL West.

[Peters Wyngarde]

2 minutes ago, glensmad said:

The proposal supposedly agreed last night was not for current junior clubs to form part of the LL West at tier 5. It was for the West Region clubs to form the feeder in to the tier 5 LL West.

Seriously!?!

Jesus.

[Cyclizine]

7 minutes ago, sweep said:

No they would be away

Only if they got promoted. I know this sounds harsh, but if your club is relying on a couple of "big payday" matches a season to stay financially stable, there are serious issues there. Particularly when the Sectional isn't a universally liked competition, not always taken seriously and could be voted away or change format.

[glensmad]

1 minute ago, Cyclizine said:

Only if they got promoted. I know this sounds harsh, but if your club is relying on a couple of "big payday" matches a season to stay financially stable, there are serious issues there. Particularly when the Sectional isn't a universally liked competition, not always taken seriously and could be voted away or change format.

Exactly.

Our friend "sweep" (and perhaps the people at his club) appears to be under the misconception that, if the West Region juniors join the pyramid en masse, his club will never play the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Glenafton Athletic and Cumnock Juniors again.

As I have pointed out, that would only be the case if all three were to gain promotion to tier 5, and to do that they would all need to be good enough to win what is currently the West Region Premiership, then win whatever play-off is agreed to promote to tier 5, and also have a licence in place.

None of that is going to happen any time soon.

But what could happen, though, if the West Region clubs reject the pyramid en masse, is that there could be a breakaway West of Scotland League, and Lugar could very well end up playing none of these teams if they all join the breakaway because of being held back.

It's a no-brainer for me, the teams in the lower leagues have absolutely nothing to fear or lose about the West joining the pyramid en masse. But they have everything to lose potentially if there is a breakaway.

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

One club per season.  I think there's a lot of smaller clubs near the bottom of the LL before the likes of Spartans, BSC, EK are even in danger, if at all.   They're looking upwards, not downwards.

The fact is, a LL West and LL East may well come through time (it probably should), once the West have 20+ Licenced clubs already in the Pyramid, once the SPFL start talking more relegation spots, once the SPFL clubs themselves get their head around more relegation spots and further regionalisation at tier 5.  Brechin's concerns should tell you that.

It's not going to happen all at the one time.

I agree 100%

The West faces a possible split, especially if Talbot and a couple of other 'top' juniors pursue their  pyramid/licensing ambitions.

The situation in the East now looks more precarious. I would guess that (in the interest of their finances, and their fans), the EoSL will receive some applications for membership from the remaining ERJFA clubs. 

Given an on-going SJFA stalemate, continuing into 2021/22 or beyond, the Clydebank situation will (also) be interesting.  Perhaps the club will apply to join the South of Scotland League, as a route to the Lowland ? Following the resignation of Dumfries YMCA, there is a vacancy.

[sweep]

6 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Only if they got promoted. I know this sounds harsh, but if your club is relying on a couple of "big payday" matches a season to stay financially stable, there are serious issues there. Particularly when the Sectional isn't a universally liked competition, not always taken seriously and could be voted away or change format.

You obviously have never been involved with a smaller junior club..

In my opinion The Pyramid would have financial implications for most teams . Like the hire of team buses to Gretna and Dalbeatie . Look at the Cumnock situation if Talbot get in and Cumnock do not.There are loads of examples where teams would be worse off. As I said in my original post we have no objections to teams trying to better themselves but would they be bettering themselves?

[glensmad]

1 minute ago, sweep said:

You obviously have never been involved with a smaller junior club..

In my opinion The Pyramid would have financial implications for most teams . Like the hire of team buses to Gretna and Dalbeatie . Look at the Cumnock situation if Talbot get in and Cumnock do not.There are loads of examples where teams would be worse off. As I said in my original post we have no objections to teams trying to better themselves but would they be bettering themselves?

Dearie me sweep, in what league format will "most teams" be playing the likes of Gretna and Dalbeatie if the West Region juniors join the pyramid en masse ?

Do you really know how this works ?

[sweep]

12 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Exactly.

Our friend "sweep" (and perhaps the people at his club) appears to be under the misconception that, if the West Region juniors join the pyramid en masse, his club will never play the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Glenafton Athletic and Cumnock Juniors again.

As I have pointed out, that would only be the case if all three were to gain promotion to tier 5, and to do that they would all need to be good enough to win what is currently the West Region Premiership, then win whatever play-off is agreed to promote to tier 5, and also have a licence in place.

None of that is going to happen any time soon.

But what could happen, though, if the West Region clubs reject the pyramid en masse, is that there could be a breakaway West of Scotland League, and Lugar could very well end up playing none of these teams if they all join the breakaway because of being held back.

It's a no-brainer for me, the teams in the lower leagues have absolutely nothing to fear or lose about the West joining the pyramid en masse. But they have everything to lose potentially if there is a breakaway.

Rubbish there are financial implications for a lot of teams. You said  nothing to lose there is a lot to lose

[glensmad]

Just now, sweep said:

Rubbish there are financial implications for a lot of teams. You said  nothing to lose there is a lot to lose

I don't think you really know how this works, to be honest.

99% of the teams would still be playing the same teams, in the same league structure. Nothing would change.

[LongTimeLurker]

17 minutes ago, Peters Wyngarde said:

Seriously!?!

Jesus.

A six team LL West clearly isn't happening so I suspect the full implications of Option Z have yet to be fully explained to all involved. One thing it likely does is keep the clubs most likely to breakaway like Clydebank inside the junior fold for now because it gives them a shot at tier 5 entry in 2021-22.

[sweep]

4 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Dearie me sweep, in what league format will "most teams" be playing the likes of Gretna and Dalbeatie if the West Region juniors join the pyramid en masse ?

Do you really know how this works ?

Yes the way it works revolves around finance.

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

A six team LL West clearly isn't happening so I suspect the full implications of Option Z have yet to be fully explained to all involved. One thing it likely does is keep the clubs most likely to breakaway like Clydebank inside the junior fold for now because it gives them a shot at tier 5 entry in 2021-22.

Fantasy football 

[sweep]

1 minute ago, glensmad said:

I don't think you really know how this works, to be honest.

99% of the teams would still be playing the same teams, in the same league structure. Nothing would change.

That is rubbish Take away 4 six or eight teams from our Premier league and you then have to restructure the leagues . So You would be lucky to have 50% playing the same teams

[glensmad]

3 minutes ago, sweep said:

Yes the way it works revolves around finance.

I get the impression you have your fingers in your ears as you don't really want to understand.

If it revolves around finance, you have nothing to fear, as it would be the status quo for you and the vast majority of West Region teams.

[glensmad]

1 minute ago, sweep said:

That is rubbish Take away 4 six or eight teams from our Premier league and you then have to restructure the leagues . So You would be lucky to have 50% playing the same teams

But that's not going to happen ! You really don't understand the proposal, do you ?

[pipedreamer]

17 minutes ago, glensmad said:

The proposal supposedly agreed last night was not for current junior clubs to form part of the LL West at tier 5. It was for the West Region clubs to form the feeder in to the tier 5 LL West.

That’s not what proposal Z was, that proposal involves taking X amount of WRJFA teams and putting them into a LL West, and not as you believe , the status quo below. If that’s what you were told then the person at the top table was brazenly lying to his member clubs. The only way for the WRSJFA to feed tier 5, as it is, was the option which had West at tier 6 and East/North to be sorted at a later date.

1 minute ago, sweep said:

Yes the way it works revolves around finance.

If your club are budgeting based on away crowds, then more fool you. That’s not a very stable way to budget as away crowds will fluctuate depending on the success of that team.