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Junior football, what is the future?

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7 hours ago, Robert James said:

In my view, the 'Lurker' keeps peddling "the same old stuff", because he knows that it won't be agreed, and that  it will therefore achieve another delay in the West Juniors joining the pyramid in 2020/21.  A clever tactic on his part, perhaps ? Probably best not to encourage him..  

 

Don't think they hold any position within the Junior game. Not sure how an opinion can be a clever tactic.

And the basic principle is correct. If the all-in approach had happened all the non-league pyramid in 2019 would probably have the HL, LL, EoSFL, SoSFL, NCL, West Region, East Region and North Region within it. The SFA would be overseeing all Tier 6 leagues as that was a point that the senior leagues pursued relentlessly. The boundary issue would have been settled in some fashion to incorporate all those leagues. The Junior Cup would have been streamlined to work around the senior calendar. So the importance of the SJFA would take a hit both in governance and financially.

Roll on 2020 and a bunch of 'junior' clubs become SFA members and it only gets worse for the SJFA.

Would mergers happen? Probably. People seem to forget that the East, Tayside and Fife got together to form the East Region set up less than 20 years ago. Then in that 20 years they continued to restructure to increase the number of region wide clubs. The EoS and East Region sat down together to discuss things between themselves outwith the PWG. Nothing came of it, but apparently that ability to listen and consider their options will magically evaporate on entering the pyramid.

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20 hours ago, Ped said:

Isn’t that basically what some sjfa and some deluded posters are asking with east juniors getting slotted in alongside an already established EOS league they will be the new teams to pyramid in that area should surely be slotted in underneath the already established league 

The problem you have is that there is a power struggle.
The ERJFA want a separate association in at tier 6 along side the EOS.
The EOS and the SOS do not want the ERJFA to come in along side them, quite rightly so. 

Think of the 28 teams, I believe who came across from ERJFA to join the EOS a few years ago, quite a few top teams I may add and now only to find out that after 2 years, in their eyes, sub standard teams, (no sorry not sub standard, I meant lower standard), from a league they left will be joining them in at tier 6. So obviously none of them will be happy, well I don't believe so.

I do not want another East association alongside the EOS, why, not because I'm from the West, I just think it makes sense to have a NOS, WOS, EOS and a SOS at tier 6.
We all know,, well hoping and expecting the WRJFA to fill the void for the WOS.
In the North, think it was a year ago, maybe longer, the NRJFA said to the PWG that their members don't wanna make up a NOS so stopped with negotiations, but that may change if the whole WRJFA joined.

 

No matter whatever the way the regions are structured you will obviously have weaker regions than others. If it did form this way, N,S,E, W, then from what I gather on here and outside most think the SOS are the weakest association due the their member teams.
So again with that in mind the SOS association right now are happy to stay where they are.

There is only one way I'd have the ERJFA come in separately would be due to large numbers including the EOS,
For example if the West have 60 teams in their association, the South had 20 teams in their association, the north had 20 teams in their association and the two combined East associations have about 140 give or take 20.  If this was so I'd have a total reshuffle of the EOS and the joining ERJFA merging together then split it in two so there's a North EOS and a South EOS. but the North EOS would have to be definitive who they are feeding into, which is LL or HL.  That's the SFA fault from history past they should have just got the border sorted throughout the country from the start.

I believe piecing everything together on here, well the true parts and other information outside of here that Right now the SJFA want the three junior associations to join the seniors as an 'All - in' but the EOS and SOS knocked this back but then right after said they both have 'no objection' to the WRJFA joining straight away as the new WOS but the SJFA didn't inform the WRJFA members of such, they just let them all know that its a no go to join the seniors as a whole.  The reason is, the SJFA don't want to lose one association at a time because it leaves them with one less bargaining chip in all these crappy power struggles.

 

###   interestingly enough spoke to a former pro youth coach and who played with Auchinleck Talbot to get his take on it all and he says team like Auchinleck who have dominated Junior football would not want to join their seniors just to fight out eventually it in division 2 meaning it gives them less chance of winning many trophies, the fans could not handle that, that's why he thinks Auchinleck would like to stay in the juniors and I suppose a few junior teams who are in with a shout of trophies in the junior ranks and lessening their chances if moving up to a harder level once they won their league  ###

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread

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1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Don't think they hold any position within the Junior game. Not sure how an opinion can be a clever tactic.

And the basic principle is correct. If the all-in approach had happened all the non-league pyramid in 2019 would probably have the HL, LL, EoSFL, SoSFL, NCL, West Region, East Region and North Region within it. The SFA would be overseeing all Tier 6 leagues as that was a point that the senior leagues pursued relentlessly. The boundary issue would have been settled in some fashion to incorporate all those leagues. The Junior Cup would have been streamlined to work around the senior calendar. So the importance of the SJFA would take a hit both in governance and financially.

Roll on 2020 and a bunch of 'junior' clubs become SFA members and it only gets worse for the SJFA.

Would mergers happen? Probably. People seem to forget that the East, Tayside and Fife got together to form the East Region set up less than 20 years ago. Then in that 20 years they continued to restructure to increase the number of region wide clubs. The EoS and East Region sat down together to discuss things between themselves outwith the PWG. Nothing came of it, but apparently that ability to listen and consider their options will magically evaporate on entering the pyramid.

Very informative.

If the north Tayside and the North juniors merged, with one superleague and regional leagues below at tier 7 and 8, it would contribute towards a solution for the East and North Juniors. To me it would be common sense, as the travelling between Aberdeenshire/North East, and Dundee/Angus is much easier than it was in the past.

I also remember the intense  Aberdeen v Dundee/Dundee United 'local derbies'/rivalries in the old Scottish League. 

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There doesn't appear to be any urgency in re-convening the PWG to address the issues, particularly the Lowland/Highland split. After swallowing TJ's dog's dinner "done deal" and then got comprehensively schooled at the EoS meeting,  does anyone else get the impression that the SFA have lost interest in the pyramid for now?

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Just now, PastyMan said:

There doesn't appear to be any urgency in re-convening the PWG to address the issues, particularly the Lowland/Highland split. After swallowing TJ's dog's dinner "done deal" and then got comprehensively schooled at the EoS meeting,  does anyone else get the impression that the SFA have lost interest in the pyramid for now?

I certainly don't think it has ever been on their list of priorities. The SFA and SJFA can get away with being inactive at this point as both sides will probably be saying they're only a couple of months into trialling the new rules they have to abide by.

As soon as there are any noises about clubs moving leagues i'm sure they'll be back at panic stations.

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What teams have made some indication they want to go to the pyramid from the West?
Outwith the survey that was done by the SJFA the only one I know of is Clydebank. The pyramid was also on the agenda of a Kilwinning Rangers meeting earlier this year iirc.

Of course behind the scenes there may be clubs taking steps/actions in private.

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39 minutes ago, ibenji said:

What teams have made some indication they want to go to the pyramid from the West?

 

26 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Outwith the survey that was done by the SJFA the only one I know of is Clydebank. The pyramid was also on the agenda of a Kilwinning Rangers meeting earlier this year iirc.

Of course behind the scenes there may be clubs taking steps/actions in private.

Clydebank definitely yes.
I'm sure there are quite a few but if for example 1 supporter of a team who have 300 supporters of a team cannot be the spokesperson on here for them lol, it would be scaremongering and windups galore.  Suppose only the official statements from the club/committee would be the best way to find out.  Think in realty most don't want to show their cards incase it doesn't materialize.

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How about taking the results of the last 10 years in Scottish football (all of it - SPFL, HL, LL, EOS, SOS, Juniors etc. - including cups), running a certain number of iterations using an Elo-like rating system and see what you get? Based on the output you could build leagues (from a certain level - perhaps below HL/LL) based on real team strength and avoid rugby scores. Just a thought from someone outside Scotland. 😊

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Probably not a bad way to go about it but to paraphrase a line in Goodfellas, it's amongst the Scots real mince and tatties stuff. What it all boils down to is league and association officeholders keeping hold of as much power as possible, so anything that emerges is likely to be a compromise that keeps all the blazers reasonably happy on that score or there will have to be a mass exodus of clubs from at least one of the leagues involved.

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Clydebank definitely yes.
I'm sure there are quite a few but if for example 1 supporter of a team who have 300 supporters of a team cannot be the spokesperson on here for them lol, it would be scaremongering and windups galore.  Suppose only the official statements from the club/committee would be the best way to find out.  Think in realty most don't want to show their cards incase it doesn't materialize.


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Probably not a bad way to go about it but to paraphrase a line in Goodfellas, it's amongst the Scots real mince and tatties stuff. What it all boils down to is league and association officeholders keeping hold of as much power as possible, so anything that emerges is likely to be a compromise that keeps all the blazers reasonably happy on that score or there will have to be a mass exodus of clubs from at least one of the leagues involved.
It really, really isn't though. You know this. It has been put across many different ways to you and others.

There are only so many times it can be written before you stop playing the same tune, regardless of how many times you have it put to you that you are playing out if tune and rhythm.

And to say again. Let's not overcomplicated this.

-Wrsjfa form a wos feeder for the LL
-The rest of the ersjfa below the tay boundary line join the eos at its lowest entry point
-The sos remain as they are
-Those clubs north of the boundary line go north.

All 3 regions below the current LL and the North region below the HL.

Pyramid sorted. Easily. No fuss. No ambiguity. No special treatment.

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1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

It really, really isn't though. You know this. It has been put across many different ways to you and others.

There are only so many times it can be written before you stop playing the same tune, regardless of how many times you have it put to you that you are playing out if tune and rhythm.

And to say again. Let's not overcomplicated this.

-Wrsjfa form a wos feeder for the LL
-The rest of the ersjfa below the tay boundary line join the eos at its lowest entry point
-The sos remain as they are
-Those clubs north of the boundary line go north.

All 3 regions below the current LL and the North region below the HL.

Pyramid sorted. Easily. No fuss. No ambiguity. No special treatment.
 

aka scrap the SJFA and split the East Region in two.

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...and all without any fuss. Good luck with that. That may well be the broad outlines of the eventual outcome, but it is unlikely to happen smoothly and was very much covered by the "mass exodus of clubs from at least one of the leagues involved" part of my post.

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On 29/09/2019 at 20:30, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:


There are.

Presumably SFA Licence applicants Cumnock and  Petershill, plus maybe Clydebank, but who else ?

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aka scrap the SJFA and split the East Region in two.
Pretty much. The sjfa are irrelevant in this. Their members voted to join the pyramid. Let them reform as the new wos association for all I care. But the pyramid only works with one strand below the LL in each region (West, East and South). There is no requirement for anymore than that. With the nrsjfa feeding the HL.

A simple structure. Nothing difficult about it. Everything is there already for each area. What is stopping us I wonder?

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