Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, perthmo said:

Same way as Berwick became members of the Lowland League or Whitehill became members of the East of Scotland League.

Cumbernauld apply to West Juniors and are accepted on the nod. West Juniors becomes the Pyramid League for the area. SJFA runs the Scottish Junior Cup for the West, North and any rump East.

Clear role for both West Region and SJFA. Ideally all football should be under a single umbrella but pragmatically it is better to take small steps now rather than none at all.

After all the priority is to bringJunior football into the pyramid, not to terminate it.

Berwick and Whitehill are already members of the SFA, they didn't need to apply for any league.

Would Cumbernauld Colts have to apply for anything if they were relegated, would they be able to compete in the West Region without being SJFA members, at they moment they cannot.

[BTID]

Will the west junior rule of only being able to sign 26 players change in line with seniors if this happens?

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Berwick and Whitehill are already members of the SFA, they didn't need to apply for any league.

Would Cumbernauld Colts have to apply for anything if they were relegated, would they be able to compete in the West Region without being SJFA members, at they moment they cannot.

Surely pyramid promotion and relegation rules for West juniors have already been discussed & drafted, mirroring the existing Lowland/EoSL league arrangements/rules ?  If the SJFA can veto accepting a relegated Cumbernauld Colts or Caledonian Braves (at tier 6), the West league isn't a pyramid feeder league.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 hours ago, Robert James said:

Surely pyramid promotion and relegation rules for West juniors have already been discussed & drafted, mirroring the existing Lowland/EoSL league arrangements/rules ?  If the SJFA can veto accepting a relegated Cumbernauld Colts or Caledonian Braves (at tier 6), the West league isn't a pyramid feeder league.

Nobody has decided what the pyramid will look like yet, why would anyone have drafted rules?

[Guest]

The point in a pyramid is direct promotion and relegation to and from one league to its direct equivalent above and below. Leagues in the pyramid can't reject a team from below or above (barring the licence status for LL entry, which is fair enough)

In real terms the sjfa wont have a place (other than to run the leagues in the West, North and potentially Tayside). There is no need for the junior cup, there is already a cup for clubs in the pyramid.

The sjfa's current rules will all have to fall in line the rest of the pyramid structure, for everything really.

[Burnie_man]

Also remember, these four suggestions are not a case of pick one and only one, they are not set in stone.  These are for discussion and feedback to the PWG.  Some leagues might like more than one, or might like one provided a few amendments are made.  Some leagues might not like any.

What the SJFA shouldn't be doing is deciding a preferred choice and telling PWG that's the only one their members back  (what east want might be completely different to what west want for example)

[Robert James]

13 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Also remember, these four suggestions are not a case of pick one and only one, they are not set in stone.  These are for discussion and feedback to the PWG.  Some leagues might like more than one, or might like one provided a few amendments are made.  Some leagues might not like any.

What the SJFA shouldn't be doing is deciding a preferred choice and telling PWG that's the only one their members back  (what east want might be completely different to what west want for example)

I agree.

In my view, if TJ & co try to dictate/interfere with the (top) junior West clubs wishes' (ie it's either option X or we don't join the pyramid), there is the probability that there will be a 'breakaway' West league.  Some of the leading junior clubs are already planning for life in the pyramid, and are unlikely to accept the status quo. 

However, the outcome may be that West pyramid entry will not take place until 2021/22 ?

[glensmad]

35 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I agree.

In my view, if TJ & co try to dictate/interfere with the (top) junior West clubs wishes' (ie it's either option X or we don't join the pyramid), there is the probability that there will be a 'breakaway' West league.  Some of the leading junior clubs are already planning for life in the pyramid, and are unlikely to accept the status quo. 

However, the outcome may be that West pyramid entry will not take place until 2021/22 ?

That I think is the likely scenario, unfortunately.

Time will tell whether the West Region clubs agree to run with whatever option the West Region management committee suggests to them as the best option.

[Sancho Panza]

36 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I agree.

In my view, if TJ & co try to dictate/interfere with the (top) junior West clubs wishes' (ie it's either option X or we don't join the pyramid), there is the probability that there will be a 'breakaway' West league.  Some of the leading junior clubs are already planning for life in the pyramid, and are unlikely to accept the status quo. 

However, the outcome may be that West pyramid entry will not take place until 2021/22 ?

must admit not heard any talk of the West clubs planning a break away, your last statement re 2021/22 is in my opinion what will happen

[Dev]

11 minutes ago, Sancho Panza said:

must admit not heard any talk of the West clubs planning a break away, your last statement re 2021/22 is in my opinion what will happen

If this happens then I think that could be the final straw for the SFA and they may invite applications to set up and run a new WoS league or keep that task in-house and then invite applications for membership from west clubs.

Maybe (?) this could happen sooner rather than later.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Dev
up-date

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Dev said:

If this happens then I think that could be the final straw for the SFA and they may invite applications to set up and run a new WoS league or keep that task in-house and then invite applications for membership from west clubs.

You would like to think. The only reason 21-22 was mentioned was in the option to consider splitting the Lowland League.

There's absolutely nothing to stop the West entering for 20-21 at Tier 6.

BSC & the EoS already half heartedly tried back in 2018.

[Sancho Panza]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

 

Maybe (?) this could happen sooner rather than later.

Like I say there are no noises being made from the any of the big players in the West, you know different?

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, Sancho Panza said:

Like I say there are no noises being made from the any of the big players in the West, you know different?

There shouldn't be at the moment as everything looks good for 2020/21.

Any sort of breakaway wouldn't be needed until say March when it looks like nothing's happening again.

[glensmad]

21 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

There shouldn't be at the moment as everything looks good for 2020/21.

Any sort of breakaway wouldn't be needed until say March when it looks like nothing's happening again.

Perhaps after Thursday night there may be noises if the discussions don't go the way they want ?

[FairWeatherFan]

21 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Perhaps after Thursday night there may be noises if the discussions don't go the way they want ?

Thursday might determine if there's interest in a breakaway. In that you can probably identify enough clubs okay with Tier 6 compared to those more interested in tier 5 or the status quo.

For the most part I'm guessing the vast majority would say pyramid involvement of some sort tier 5 or 6.

So if the January PWG and possibly March go by with no official changes. I think that's when moves get made.

Edit: to add

I think any breakaway threat will ultimately see everyone come along. The West don't want what happened in the East happen to them.

Edited January 10, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[Burnie_man]

19 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Would Cumbernauld Colts have to apply for anything if they were relegated, would they be able to compete in the West Region without being SJFA members, at they moment they cannot.

The status of the WRJFA also needs clarified. You can't compete in a Junior league without being a member of the SJFA, so would any relegated club to the WRJFA (eg Colts) need to apply for membership of the SJFA?  If not, that needs a change to the rules and does it open the gateway to the likes of Glasgow Uni (as an SFA member club) applying to join the WRJFA  and enter the Pyramid but without SJFA membership (or any non-SJFA club for that matter?).

The relationship between SJFA and WRJFA needs clarified before the league enters, or simply the WRJFA cuts ties and becomes the WoSFL with membership of the SJFA for clubs being optional (like the EoSFL and the EoSFA).

[Dev]

5 hours ago, Sancho Panza said:

Like I say there are no noises being made from the any of the big players in the West, you know different?

I am not suggesting that I know any different. Hence "Maybe (?)".

However, just standing back and observing what has happened during the recent seasons it seems to me that a turning point is here for the  West Juniors.

There are some good people involved in the West who have politely refrained from causing  any  splits in the League but there is a limit to the blocks put in place by some others along the way, and this is about to change, once and for all.

The West League has already modified some of its' rules so it is part of the way there already.

If in any doubt then the West can more or less use the existing EoS league rules, adapting them as necessary. 

[LongTimeLurker]

6 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

There shouldn't be at the moment as everything looks good for 2020/21...

...on the surface until you stop to ponder why options that clearly have zero chance of actually happening would still have been included as part of the package for discussion by the various leagues. 

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...on the surface until you stop to ponder why options that clearly have zero chance of actually happening would still have been included as part of the package for discussion by the various leagues. 

3 out for 4 options brought up all have the West Region in intact at Tier 6 on down. As long as the West Region are cool with that between the end of January-May they've got time to get things in place.

The West Region have already been trialling the SFA rules and regulations and proving they can fit the West Premiership into the senior calendar time table. The one change seems to be accepting a non-SJFA member into the West Region. That principle already applies within the pyramid with EoSFA member and historical EoSFL participant Gretna 2008 relegated to the SoSFL.

The bulk of the existing Lowland League play-off rules will still apply. All that needs to be amended is the format of the competition.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

9 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

...As long as the West Region are cool with that between the end of January-May they've got time to get things in place...

We'll see what happens, but it's important to remember that it's not the west region that does the negotiating at PWG level but the SJFA doing so on behalf of its entire membership.