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Burnie_man

Junior football, what is the future?

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6 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

As things stand it is the SJFA doing the negotiating for the SJFA to enter intact with its three superleagues at tier 6 and the SFA were backing that posture in the PWG minutes that were circulating on here, while the EoS were opposing it. The HL still has several potential vacancies so there is nothing for the north region to negotiate on promotion right now because newly licensed clubs in theory at least will simply join the HL, and the east region's posture is still that they will move back to a single superleague format if pyramid entry happens, so talk of the north and east not wanting to join at tier 6 are red herrings. 

As things stand the SFA view the WRSJFA as the future tier 6 for the west and new discipline procedures are being followed this season supposedly in preparation for that. There is no guarantee that a small WoS breakaway group is something that the SFA would welcome happening and actively sanction as they would need to for it to become part of the pyramid, if the majority of west region clubs were still sticking with the SJFA. Things are at a standoff with no easy resolution unless at least one of the associations/leagues involved makes a major concession. As you state above that probably suits one of the parties involved who have always been anti-pyramid at blazer level just fine.

The SFA the way I see it, act as if they don't care as much if junior teams join or not, they just want an easy life.
The SJFA association are only interested in themselves, they want all teams to join the seniors but only on their terms, which cannot happen.
The junior assocation know if a sample of teams leave, like the whole West section leaving with the East still at the juniors then that would put the SJFA in a perilous weak position.
There is no way, my view shared by many, that you can have two East associations.
The ERJFA will never be allowed to enter as a separate association when there is already a EOS there. (we had 28 teams, I think, leave the East Region to join the seniors 2 years ago and some of those teams where the top teams in that region so why would even they alone allow the ERJFA to join level with them when they know they are better than most)

Each problem is and should be addressed in isolation
The West is an easy fix, join as whole but the only stumbling block, the SJFA don't want this as they want all juniors to go together at tier 6 as LongTimeLurker stated

The border with the tayside clubs needs soted

The east joining and how they join

The West joining to make up the WOS, (if the WOS started then that's it, the whole West and SOS doesn't need to be tampered with all we have then is the East and the North and do you honestly think that if the North joined leavening only the East region as juniors that all those juniors teams would stay in the junior ranks, hell no and the same if roles revered, East region joining and the North teams thinking stuff this, I want to go where the rest are.
When you look at it objectively, there is a league at tier 6 for the East, there's a league at tier 6 for the south and we have  a gap where's there's no tier 6 league for the North or the West.

 

The EOS will only allow  teams in or the ERJFA in if they join in their association in leagues below their own top leagues, (think a bit of negotiation with the top ERJFA junior regional teams can ask to be put in the higher league).
The SOS want the ERJFA to join in with the EOS, why, because the SOS are in a good position, they are a tier 6 level but out of the West, North, South and East they would be deemed as the league with the weakest teams and if it was by standard of teams they would be in  a lower tier. I cannot be concrete on this as I've not witnessed many teams play in the SOS but I get that impression from most people I chat with but that is neither here nor there as the SOS are in a good position and don't want anything to make it change.

The North region, obviously at first they were interested to join then summit happened and they pulled out quickly but at this juncture there is a vacancy for a tier 6 in the North, just as simple as that.

My only problem which only a few has touched on is the playoffs and promotion, if all teams join the pyramid system then the promotion relegation should be a minimum of at least two promoted and a play off place, (different variations).  The current one, I do not like that the LL and the HL have a playff of with each other to see who plays against the bottom club of League 2.  league 2 should be relegated immediately and the 2nd bottom team  in league 2 should play off against the loser of the HL, LL playoff or even better, the 2nd place team of the HL and the second place team of the LL are joined by the 2nd bottom of league two and the loser of the HL - LL playoff and thus its a draw for the semi finals and then final, with winner going to the League 2.

The reason why it should be a possibly 3 teams promoted relegated throughout as it will be a big pyramid system and some might get disillusioned that there is only 1, maybe 2 spaces to go up.

if all these things were sorted the effect could be astronomical and the interest can just snowball, even the youth football will have to change, big style with more kids seeing there's now a genuine possibility of becoming a professional player.

 

With LongTiemLurker is right stating its the SJFA doing the negotiations for the transition from junior to senior but on their terms and there is the stumbling block, what if nothing happens, the SJFA feck it up ! Are all the teams gonna just still stay in the juniors even thought the SJFA said they would sort it for everyone?
The teams with balls should just leave but those teams have all been waiting for the right moment, Clydebank are one of those teams.

But it would be genuinely good for clarity to know which teams do want to join the seniors and not just from the West but from the East and the North and even is there any amateur teams interested in doing so..

Speaking to committee members at the end of last years season I know Kilsyth Rangers don't want it, the same of Harthill Royal, West Calder United

 

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread

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1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

As things stand it is the SJFA doing the negotiating for the SJFA to enter intact with its three superleagues at tier 6 and the SFA were backing that posture in the PWG minutes that were circulating on here, while the EoS were opposing it. The HL still has several potential vacancies so there is nothing for the north region to negotiate on promotion right now because newly licensed clubs in theory at least will simply join the HL, and the east region's posture is still that they will move back to a single superleague format if pyramid entry happens, so talk of the north and east not wanting to join at tier 6 are red herrings. 

As things stand the SFA view the WRSJFA as the future tier 6 for the west and new discipline procedures are being followed this season supposedly in preparation for that. There is no guarantee that a small WoS breakaway group is something that the SFA would welcome happening and actively sanction as they would need to for it to become part of the pyramid, if the majority of west region clubs were still sticking with the SJFA. Things are at a standoff with no easy resolution unless at least one of the associations/leagues involved makes a major concession. As you state above that probably suits one of the parties involved who have always been anti-pyramid at blazer level just fine.

After January when things hit the skids, it's not exactly clear the SJFA ever notified the regions that the West could enter on its own in 2019-20.

By that point the North has bowed out and the East were planning to split.

If the SJFA had updated clubs on proceedings then the West could have been in.

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2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

After January when things hit the skids, it's not exactly clear the SJFA ever notified the regions that the West could enter on its own in 2019-20.

By that point the North has bowed out and the East were planning to split.

If the SJFA had updated clubs on proceedings then the West could have been in.

Exactly this and stated before by many

The SJFA are just looking after themselves.
Imagine being told the West can all move and they don't inform the West clubs, oufffttt and they are still in their position

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1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

As things stand it is the SJFA doing the negotiating for the SJFA to enter intact with its three superleagues at tier 6 and the SFA were backing that posture in the PWG minutes that were circulating on here, while the EoS were opposing it. The HL still has several potential vacancies so there is nothing for the north region to negotiate on promotion right now because newly licensed clubs in theory at least will simply join the HL, and the east region's posture is still that they will move back to a single superleague format if pyramid entry happens, so talk of the north and east not wanting to join at tier 6 are red herrings. 

As things stand the SFA view the WRSJFA as the future tier 6 for the west and new discipline procedures are being followed this season supposedly in preparation for that. There is no guarantee that a small WoS breakaway group is something that the SFA would welcome happening and actively sanction as they would need to for it to become part of the pyramid, if the majority of west region clubs were still sticking with the SJFA. Things are at a standoff with no easy resolution unless at least one of the associations/leagues involved makes a major concession. As you state above that probably suits one of the parties involved who have always been anti-pyramid at blazer level just fine.

As one of the best posters on P&B since this forum commenced, I find it difficult to understand why you appear to be 'promoting' an "all in or all out" approach for (all) the remaining juniors as the only way ahead. You know that  the EoSL and possibly the SLL won't support this approach ?  Also, the HFL aren't on board either. Have they indicated their support for a Tier 6 level north of the Tay border - which is another unresolved issue ? If they have announced this, I haven't heard about it.    

Surely you accept that this "all in or all out" approach won't happen in 2020/21, leading to  on-going pyramid stalemate ?

Is the PWG actually doing anything about these issues, as October looms ? As far as I can recall, the PWG hasn't  issued any positive news about its  pyramid discussions/progress  with the HFL  regarding a  Highland Tier 6 'structure' for next season, or beyond. Nor has it issued any positive statement about its encouraging discussion with the NCL. 

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52 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

The SFA the way I see it, act as if they don't care as much if junior teams join or not, they just want an easy life.
The SJFA association are only interested in themselves, they want all teams to join the seniors but only on their teams, which cannot happen.
The junior assocation know if a sample of teams leave, like the whole West section leaving with the East still at the juniors then that would put the SJFA in a perilous weak position.
There is no way, my view shared by many, that you can have two East associations.
The ERJFA will never be allowed to enter as a separate association when there is already a EOS there. (we had 28 teams, I think, leave the East Region to join the seniors 2 years ago and some of those teams where the top teams in that region so why would even they alone allow the ERJFA to join level with them when they know they are better than most)

Each problem is and should be addressed in isolation
The West is an easy fix, join as whole but the only stumbling block, the SJFA don't want this as they want all juniors to go together at tier 6 as LongTimeLurker stated

The border with the tayside clubs needs soted

The east joining and how they join

The West joining to make up the WOS, (if the WOS started then that's it, the whole West and SOS doesn't need to be tampered with all we have then is the East and the North and do you honestly think that if the North joined leavening only the East region as juniors that all those juniors teams would stay in the junior ranks, hell no and the same if roles revered, East region joining and the North teams thinking stuff this, I want to go where the rest are.
When you look at it objectively, there is a league at tier 6 for the East, there's a league at tier 6 for the south and we have  a gap where's there's no tier 6 league for the North or the West.

 

The EOS will only allow  teams in or the ERJFA in if they join in their association in leagues below their own top leagues, (think a bit of negotiation with the top ERJFA junior regional teams can ask to be put in the higher league).
The SOS want the ERJFA to join in with the EOS, why, because the SOS are in a good position, they are a tier 6 level but out of the West, North, South and East they would be deemed as the league with the weakest teams and if it was by standard of teams they would be in  a lower tier. I cannot be concrete on this as I've not witnessed many teams play in the SOS but I get that impression from most people I chat with but that is neither here nor there as the SOS are in a good position and don't want anything to make it change.

The North region, obviously at first they were interested to join then summit happened and they pulled out quickly but at this juncture there is a vacancy for a tier 6 in the North, just as simple as that.

My only problem which only a few has touched on is the playoffs and promotion, if all teams join the pyramid system then the promotion relegation should be a minimum of at least two promoted and a play off place, (different variations).  The current one, I do not like that the LL and the HL have a playff of with each other to see who plays against the bottom club of League 2.  league 2 should be relegated immediately and the 2nd bottom team  in league 2 should play off against the loser of the HL, LL playoff or even better, the 2nd place team of the HL and the second place team of the LL are joined by the 2nd bottom of league two and the loser of the HL - LL playoff and thus its a draw for the semi finals and then final, with winner going to the League 2.

The reason why it should be a possibly 3 teams promoted relegated throughout as it will be a big pyramid system and some might get disillusioned that there is only 1, maybe 2 spaces to go up.

if all these things were sorted the effect could be astronomical and the interest can just snowball, even the youth football will have to change, big style with more kids seeing there's now a genuine possibility of becoming a professional player.

 

With LongTiemLurker is right stating its the SJFA doing the negotiations for the transition from junior to senior but on their terms and there is the stumbling block, what if nothing happens, the SJFA feck it up are all the teams gonna just still stay in the juniors even thought the SJFA said they would sort it for everyone.
The teams with balls should just leave but those teams have all bene waiting for the right moment, Clydebank are one of those teams.

But it would be genuinely good for clarity to know which teams do want to join the seniors and not just from the West but from the East and the North and even is there any amateur teams interested in doing so..

Speaking to committee members at the end of last years season I know Kilsyth Rangers don't want it, the same of Harthill Royal, West Calder united

 

I agree with your view that more promotion opportunities to the Lowland League, will be needed if a West 'pyramid feeder league' is created. However this is not an immediate problem as only one of the existing West juniors is SFA licensed : Girvan FC, and a large number of West juniors don't have floodlights, so can't get promoted to tier 5, at present.

In the north, there is an HFL vacancy, but the only SFA licensed junior club, Banks O'Dee, turned down an invitation for 2019/20.  It has been mentioned on this forum, that BoD may apply to join the HFL next season, if the club's licence is to be withdrawn, because the club "has not committed to the pyramid"  by then.

North Caley League champions, Golspie Sutherland also has an SFA licence, but does not currently have floodlights.

 . 

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8 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I agree with your view that more promotion opportunities to the Lowland League, will be needed if a West 'pyramid feeder league' is created. However this is not an immediate problem as only one of the existing West juniors is SFA licensed : Girvan FC, and a large number of West juniors don't have floodlights, so can't get promoted to tier 5, at present.

In the north, there is an HFL vacancy, but the only SFA licensed junior club, Banks O'Dee, turned down an invitation for 2019/20.  It has been mentioned on this forum, that BoD may apply to join the HFL next season, if the club's licence is to be withdrawn, because the club "has not committed to the pyramid"  by then.

North Caley League champions, Golspie Sutherland also has an SFA licence, but does not currently have floodlights.

 . 

" agree with your view that more promotion opportunities to the Lowland League, will be needed if a West 'pyramid feeder league' is created. However this is not an immediate problem as only one of the existing West juniors is SFA licensed : Girvan FC, and a large number of West juniors don't have floodlights, so can't get promoted to tier 5, at present."

Agreed, there's no rush for the promotion places but when everyone's is on board I would and hope it will be looked at.
There are a lot who do not have floodlight, Pollok for example but each level has its own remit so if a team, say Pollok won their tier 6 league and they should get promotion, then they just don't get it and it passes down to second place until the next finished team has all the condition met for tier 5 entry. This would be the same for the East, North and South.

I hate this commitment crap, teams fortunes change and thus they cannot keep to what was originally arranged in the past. New committee, new outlook etc...  For whatever reason BOD did not join, maybe they felt they were not ready for senior ranks  or realizing they are the only team who is capable of being a full member and that the rest of the North region will think its best just to stay in the junior ranks and BOD didn't want to go alone.
It should not be taken away from them as they meet the criteria, they will join when the time is right. The only difference for them that should happen is that they just go down lower in the pecking order if there is a bunch of North junior teams who join the Seniors.

For me everything can and be easily dealt with. I have been working in youth football and there are soo many grassroot problems that I feel, and many other feel is being ignored by the SYFA that is actually harming youth football and making us lose good, hard working youth coaches. Once the pyramid system is sorted with all the junior teams on board, hopefully then we may then be able to all come together, SFA, SYFA and youth academies etc.. to work out ideas with how to improve or change the way the grassroots is operating and run.  me personally I don't give a shit who runs it as long as it benefits Scottish Football

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7 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

 


Surprised you’re bothering with the next round of the Scottish cup and not just demanding late entry to the champions league.

A win against Kelty and you talk like you’re Barcelona emoji23.png

 

Talbot are the Real Madrid of Junior football 

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3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

...If the SJFA had updated clubs on proceedings then the West could have been in.

Not at all clear that's the case despite what gets posted on here. If the mandate given to the SJFA officeholders at the 2018 AGM was to get the entire association in at tier 6 (where the three superleagues are concerned) it's not safe to assume that they are able to do it one region at a time. If all that was provided at the 2019 AGM was an update on progress, and the clubs didn't query what was happening and tell the SJFA officeholders to get the west region in pronto, it could easily be another year of trying to drive a square peg into a round hole.

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1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

They clearly felt empowered to do it for only two out of three regions last year, so why not just one?

This is a myth that has built up on here. The HL still has potential vacancies so there was nothing for the HL and NRSJFA to negotiate about on promotion and relegation in a north PWG meeting and no impediment to the north entering at the same time the east and west did. It was in the LL catchment that there was something that needed to be actively ironed out with the LL, SoS and EoS on how leagues would feed into the LL on promotion and relegation and that's where things got derailed during the south PWG meetings.

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2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

This is a myth that has built up on here. The HL still has potential vacancies so there was nothing for the HL and NRSJFA to negotiate about on promotion and relegation in a north PWG meeting and no impediment to the north entering at the same time the east and west did. It was in the LL catchment that there was something that needed to be actively ironed out with the LL, SoS and EoS on how leagues would feed into the LL on promotion and relegation and that's where things got derailed during the south PWG meetings.

It's not a myth..

“Part of that process was for representatives of the Highland League to meet with representatives of the North Region Junior FA to consider the possibility. That meeting took place in Huntly on November 18, last year and in the course of a cordial discussion, the NRJFA officials made it crystal clear that there was no appetite amongst junior clubs to become Tier 6 in the north, as indeed was their right so to do.”

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/1744053/we-cant-offer-spots-in-the-highland-league-says-secretary-rod-Houston/

The NRJFA don't want to be part of the Pyramid as it stands, so therefore the SJFA are being selective about their all-in policy, which at that point should have been torn up.

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The NRSJFA, SJFA and SFA have never stated that's the case, as far as I'm aware. That's only the HL secretary's spin on what happened in a meeting and nothing more. As things stand the way into the HL is by application and they have potential vacancies and won't split into two divisions until they have more than 20 clubs. If there are no licensed clubs in the NRSJFA besides Banks o'Dee and no appetite to get licensed on the part of those other junior clubs there was no need to start promotion from a tier 6 and the meeting was a waste of time. If the other two superleagues get sorted then the north can easily be declared tier 6 on paper by the SFA with nothing actually changing until such time as there is an actual practical need for promotion and relegation due to there being more licensed clubs than potential places in the HL. The north is a red herring in all of this.

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3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The NRSJFA, SJFA and SFA have never stated that's the case, as far as I'm aware. That's only the HL secretary's spin on what happened in a meeting and nothing more. As things stand the way into the HL is by application and they have potential vacancies and won't split into two divisions until they have more than 20 clubs. If there are no licensed clubs in the NRSJFA besides Banks o'Dee and no appetite to get licensed on the part of those other junior clubs there was no need to start promotion from a tier 6 and the meeting was a waste of time. If the other two superleagues get sorted then the north can easily be declared tier 6 on paper by the SFA with nothing actually changing until such time as there is an actual practical need for promotion and relegation due to there being more licensed clubs than potential places in the HL. The north is a red herring in all of this.

Oh c'mon FFS, the HL are hardly going to lie about it.  It's also been the feedback from PWG that the NRJFA aren't interested.  Nobody at the NRJFA or SJFA are coming out and claiming otherwise, and BoD turned down the HL.  The evidence is pretty clear

So we're back to the SJFA being selective about all-in entry.

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2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The NRSJFA, SJFA and SFA have never stated that's the case, as far as I'm aware. That's only the HL secretary's spin on what happened in a meeting and nothing more. As things stand the way into the HL is by application and they have potential vacancies and won't split into two divisions until they have more than 20 clubs. If there are no licensed clubs in the NRSJFA besides Banks o'Dee and no appetite to get licensed on the part of those other junior clubs there was no need to start promotion from a tier 6 and the meeting was a waste of time. If the other two superleagues get sorted then the north can easily be declared tier 6 on paper by the SFA with nothing actually changing until such time as there is an actual practical need for promotion and relegation due to there being more licensed clubs than potential places in the HL. The north is a red herring in all of this.

It's a quote by someone directly involved it has more credence than anything suggested on here and is supported by the knowledge that from November to present day there have been no further discussions.

As for the North being a red herring by virtue of the Highland League being open to application. The Lowland League was open to applications years before it maxed out at 16 clubs.

Even while open to application, the EoS & SoS had agreed tier 6 status and promotion/relegation rules between the 3 leagues. The North appear to have simply walked away. 

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1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Not at all clear that's the case despite what gets posted on here. If the mandate given to the SJFA officeholders at the 2018 AGM was to get the entire association in at tier 6 (where the three superleagues are concerned) it's not safe to assume that they are able to do it one region at a time. If all that was provided at the 2019 AGM was an update on progress, and the clubs didn't query what was happening and tell the SJFA officeholders to get the west region in pronto, it could easily be another year of trying to drive a square peg into a round hole.

That's the point it shouldn't have been left till the agm to give an update.

In March the West Region had clubs declaring licensing applications and dealt with the split Premiership proposal in order to fit into the pyramid playoff calendar. All of that was for nowt as it was already known the all in approach wasn't going to pass in time for 2019-20.

If an update/egm was given then with knowledge provided that the West could enter on its own, it might well have happened.

Why it didn't? Maybe more than Glenrothes and Kinnoull would have moved to the EoS so they could access the pyramid this season and the SJFA would have lost more than 2 members.

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My understanding of where things stand is that the NRSJFA clubs see the pyramid as something that doesn't really affect them directly because none of them (Banks O'Dee excepted obviously) are trying to get licensed (as with the NCL, they are more like amateur teams in central belt terms than genuine junior clubs) , but at the same time they are not going to stand in the way of the other two regions entering so will tag along in some way on paper at least, if necessary. It's that last bit where I think Burnie_man is going a step too far based on the available info.

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2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's the point it shouldn't have been left till the agm to give an update....

But it was and nobody seems to have rocked the boat over what was happening, so that's a recipe for going round and round in circles for another year, unless the SFA is receptive to a WoS breakaway, which remains to be seen.

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1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It's that last bit where I think Burnie_man is going a step too far based on the available info.

"....the NRJFA officials made it crystal clear that there was no appetite amongst junior clubs to become Tier 6 in the north, as indeed was their right so to do.”

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I was able to read it OK the first time even when there was no bold face. Most HL clubs don't want there to be any relegation from the HL, none of the NRSJFA clubs are interested in promotion, so the north doesn't see this as being anything to do with them. The SFA and SJFA subsequently ploughed on in southern PWG meetings as if this didn't change anything significant on SJFA entry, so where's the evidence that this means that the NRSJA are definitively out and at loggerheads with the rest of the SJFA over pyramid entry? You are taking things one step too far.

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11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I was able to read it OK the first time even when there was no bold face. Most HL clubs don't want there to be any relegation from the HL, none of the NRSJFA clubs are interested in promotion, so the north doesn't see this as being anything to do with them. The SFA and SJFA subsequently ploughed on in southern PWG meetings as if this didn't change anything significant on SJFA entry, so where's the evidence that this means that the NRSJA are definitively out and at loggerheads with the rest of the SJFA over pyramid entry? You are taking things one step too far.

It was in bold the first time round.

The SJFA, by your own admission, voted to enter the Pyramid intact and we're told that is why the SJFA negotiate at PWG and not the Regions themselves. However the NRJFA have made it clear they are not interested, hence why the HL have dropped out of PWG discussions recently, and the meetings progressed on that basis.

The SFA produced a plan for this season which included WRJFA and ERJFA at tier 6, but did not include NRJFA.  The SJFA were more than happy to see the WRJFA and ERJFA enter the play-offs, with the NRJFA continuing to do their own thing in isolation.

All that is fact, and all that drives a big hole through the theory that the SJFA are mandated to only discuss all-in entry.  That is false, a blind man can see that.

Which brings us all the way back to the WRJFA.  If they could have entered for this season, why didn't they? it cannot be because the SJFA can't be seen to leave other Regions behind because we have already established that they weren't too concerned with the NRJFA being left behind.

So the mandate is busted.  If the WRJFA want entry, get them round the table at PWG and start talking directly to them.  If they don't, the way is open for a WoS to be discussed.  The all-in entry excuse is no longer credible.

 

Edited by Burnie_man

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