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Burnie_man

Junior football, what is the future?

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1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Threave beat kelty in a cup tie though

And East Kilbride beat St Mirren this season. The Lowland Leagus shouldn't be elevated to tier 1 on that basis.

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1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Threave beat kelty in a cup tie though

On penalties, when Kelty were down to 10 men early in the match.

5 hours ago, G4Mac said:

The problem with this is that the SOS originally bought I to the pyramid concept. Look at the LL and you will find clubs who formerly played in the SOS. I see no reason to automatically suggest they should give up their place at tier 6 just because the juniors now want to join.

This is the approach that frustrates people, the view that because the juniors want to access a system they have had no interest in for 5 years everyone else has to either adjust what they are doing, rejig their set up or give up their earned place at a certain level, even though their association was one of the founding members of the pyramid.

There is no need for any current association of the pyramid to move down the way, step aside or give up their current position because the sjfa want in on the action.

In the longer term though, you can't on one hand say that there shouldn't be two overlapping LL feeder leagues in the east - while ignoring the fact that WOS/WRJFA+SOS would be two overlapping leagues in the west.

So it's either a choice of:

 - creating a new WOS setup and inviting SOS clubs to take part in a regionwide west league, otherwise they can remain in their local league but further down the pyramid. OR

 - tell the Juniors to join the SOS where there would need to be conferences and then tier 6/7 divisions like in the east, so you have clubs in the west arranged on sporting merit.

The SOS can still buy into the pyramid system - but whichever way the Juniors join you won't have many SOS clubs in tier 6 because they aren't good enough to be there, just like how none of the 2017/18 EOS clubs are in tier 6.

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As harsh as it looks, moving the SoS league down a tier to create a new WoS tier at tier 6 should NOT really change much for them. As long as they keep any of their current perks (Cup rights, payments, etc) then I can’t see there being much of a problem

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3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

On penalties, when Kelty were down to 10 men early in the match.

In the longer term though, you can't on one hand say that there shouldn't be two overlapping LL feeder leagues in the east - while ignoring the fact that WOS/WRJFA+SOS would be two overlapping leagues in the west.

So it's either a choice of:

 - creating a new WOS setup and inviting SOS clubs to take part in a regionwide west league, otherwise they can remain in their local league but further down the pyramid. OR

 - tell the Juniors to join the SOS where there would need to be conferences and then tier 6/7 divisions like in the east, so you have clubs in the west arranged on sporting merit.

The SOS can still buy into the pyramid system - but whichever way the Juniors join you won't have many SOS clubs in tier 6 because they aren't good enough to be there, just like how none of the 2017/18 EOS clubs are in tier 6.

Its totally different Bonnyton had to JOIN SoSfl as that was the most local league other than that their is no overlap. The East is completely different theirs west lothian, Falkirk and fife teams in both leagues

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3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

On penalties, when Kelty were down to 10 men early in the match.

In the longer term though, you can't on one hand say that there shouldn't be two overlapping LL feeder leagues in the east - while ignoring the fact that WOS/WRJFA+SOS would be two overlapping leagues in the west.

So it's either a choice of:

 - creating a new WOS setup and inviting SOS clubs to take part in a regionwide west league, otherwise they can remain in their local league but further down the pyramid. OR

 - tell the Juniors to join the SOS where there would need to be conferences and then tier 6/7 divisions like in the east, so you have clubs in the west arranged on sporting merit.

The SOS can still buy into the pyramid system - but whichever way the Juniors join you won't have many SOS clubs in tier 6 because they aren't good enough to be there, just like how none of the 2017/18 EOS clubs are in tier 6.

The overlap - such as it is - consists of two outlier clubs; Kello, the sole D&G juniors and Bonnyton from Ayrshire playing in the SoS.

Other than those there's no geographical overlap whatsoever; while the area covered by the SoS gets called the south west of the country mainly to distinguish it from the Borders proper, it's easy to forget just how far EAST it stretches...Dumfries itself is almost exactly in line longitude-wise to Linlithgow, while the more easterly outposts of the SoS like Annan and Lochmaben are as far east as some of the western Edinburgh suburbs.

Until recently the SoS has never made any pretence of being anything other than a D&G league...in fact they had real reservations about admitting EK due to the travel involved although the way things panned put they never kicked a ball in anger in the league, and Edusport ended up playing at Annan for much the same reason.

Edited by Hillonearth

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25 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Its totally different Bonnyton had to JOIN SoSfl as that was the most local league other than that their is no overlap. The East is completely different theirs west lothian, Falkirk and fife teams in both leagues

So what's your argument, that there should be two leagues in the west at tier 6? If Bonnyton had to join the SOS then Junior clubs do the same, including the 14 who are further south than Bonnyton.

1 minute ago, Hillonearth said:

The overlap - such as it is - consists of two outlier clubs; Kello, the sole D&G juniors and Bonnyton from Ayrshire playing in the SoS.

Other than those there's no geographical overlap whatsoever; while the area covered by the SoS gets called the south west of the country mainly to distinguish it from the Borders proper, it's easy to forget just how far EAST it stretches...Dumfries itself is almost exactly in line longitude-wise as say Linlithgow, while the more easterly outposts of the SoS like Annan and Lochmaben are as far east as some of the western Edinburgh suburbs.

Until recently the SoS has never made any pretence of being anything other than a D&G league...in fact they had real reservations about admitting EK due to the travel involved although the way things panned put they never kicked a ball in anger in the league, and Edusport ended up playing at Annan for much the same reason.

There's also Caldeonian Braves reserves based in Motherwell. Nithsdale Wanderers are also further north than three West clubs.

And yes I know D&G stretches to the east but Dalbeattie and Gretna will be relegated to the SOS, and the road network puts those clubs closer to Glasgow than Edinburgh.

Edited by Ginaro

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26 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Its totally different Bonnyton had to JOIN SoSfl as that was the most local league other than that their is no overlap. The East is completely different theirs west lothian, Falkirk and fife teams in both leagues

You've got teams out of Ayr and Lanarkshire in the SoSFL and Kello Rovers in the West Region. If the West Region gets in as it is there has to be a look at the boundaries between the SoSFL and West Region. Otherwise a new team could just apply for the SoSFL and get a step ahead on the pyramid.

Not having boundaries and just having Bonnyton, Caledonian and Kello grandfathered in keeps up the arugment that some Tayside clubs should be allowed in the East.

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11 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You've got teams out of Ayr and Lanarkshire in the SoSFL and Kello Rovers in the West Region. If the West Region gets in as it is there has to be a look at the boundaries between the SoSFL and West Region. Otherwise a new team could just apply for the SoSFL and get a step ahead on the pyramid.

Not having boundaries and just having Bonnyton, Caledonian and Kello grandfathered in keeps up the arugment that some Tayside clubs should be allowed in the East.

But isnt the kello Rovers one due to travel for easiness. Obviously if a west came in I think Bonnyton, Edusport reserves might disappear anyway and Glasgow uni would be involved in a WOSFL. I know when we played Bonnyton at Lockerbie, Mids are in their league, it took them the same travel time that it did for Camelon to get there.

Some Tayside clubs are allowed in. Tayport i'd think teams like scone and luncarty probably could because they are that close to the line. But teams that are way out like carnoustie or lochee should be nowhere near the eosfl

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23 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

So what's your argument, that there should be two leagues in the west at tier 6? If Bonnyton had to join the SOS then Junior clubs do the same, including the 14 who are further south than Bonnyton.

There's also Caldeonian Braves reserves based in Motherwell. Nithsdale Wanderers are also further north than three West clubs.

And yes I know D&G stretches to the east but Dalbeattie and Gretna will be relegated to the SOS, and the road network puts those clubs closer to Glasgow than Edinburgh.

They are only further north if you are sticking a straight line across it. But life isn't as simple as that. They are dumfries and galloway. But Girvan is for example 21 miles from ayr. Nithsdale are 31 miles so your argument doesnt stack up

 

Newton stewart is further south than Bedlington because scottish border isnt a straight line. Are we going to ask the Terriers to join the EOSFL

Edited by AlanCamelonfan

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D&G is pretty difficult to get around and about in, and all the clubs are effectively amateur.

The SoS shouldn't be at tier 6 indefinitely. Standard-wise it's on a par with the old Ayrshire district league, in some respects it is a winner and loser of Scottish football's unusual geography and history

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1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:

D&G is pretty difficult to get around and about in, and all the clubs are effectively amateur.

The SoS shouldn't be at tier 6 indefinitely. Standard-wise it's on a par with the old Ayrshire district league, in some respects it is a winner and loser of Scottish football's unusual geography and history

maybe teams in that league would be comfortable dropping down. If teams like threave could go to a wosfl and if u had enough for 16 team west league then below that you have a west league and sosfl. Theirs loads of ways to do it. I think creating a WOSFL is likelyonly way as I can't see west as a whole coming in.

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17 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

But isnt the kello Rovers one due to travel for easiness. Obviously if a west came in I think Bonnyton, Edusport reserves might disappear anyway and Glasgow uni would be involved in a WOSFL. I know when we played Bonnyton at Lockerbie, Mids are in their league, it took them the same travel time that it did for Camelon to get there.

Some Tayside clubs are allowed in. Tayport i'd think teams like scone and luncarty probably could because they are that close to the line. But teams that are way out like carnoustie or lochee should be nowhere near the eosfl

Nobody knows what any imagined WoSFL would look like and nobody is organising one right now. The only proposals even attempted are Juniors all in and the West Region in now on its own. So the idea that these SoSFL anomalies are just going to disappear into a new league is as hypothetical as saying the SoSFL will step down a tier.

In terms of travel Bonnyton pretty much have to go past 6 Junior sides before they play their nearest SoSFL club Nithsdale. The last of the 6 being Kello.

image.png.5d6dc1b5ccd95557062085db814b222b.png

 

For Tayside having the SoS and West Region exist with overlapping clubs opens up the argument over how significant the HL/LL boundary really should be and the issue over the two East leagues.

Why should they be the only region impacted by a boundary, especially as the concentration of clubs makes it look more sensiible for them to be playing in the East.

image.thumb.png.4477f08332c50a28caf072e2a03d403f.png

 

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20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Nobody knows what any imagined WoSFL would look like and nobody is organising one right now. The only proposals even attempted are Juniors all in and the West Region in now on its own. So the idea that these SoSFL anomalies are just going to disappear into a new league is as hypothetical as saying the SoSFL will step down a tier.

In terms of travel Bonnyton pretty much have to go past 6 Junior sides before they play their nearest SoSFL club Nithsdale. The last of the 6 being Kello.

image.png.5d6dc1b5ccd95557062085db814b222b.png

 

For Tayside having the SoS and West Region exist with overlapping clubs opens up the argument over how significant the HL/LL boundary really should be and the issue over the two East leagues.

Why should they be the only region impacted by a boundary, especially as the concentration of clubs makes it look more sensiible for them to be playing in the East.

image.thumb.png.4477f08332c50a28caf072e2a03d403f.png

 

That's only because theirs more clubs south.  Give you an example camelon are 20 mins from kilsyth and the same from boness and linlithgow so what do you do.

We play haddington on saturday and that's 55 mins but when we went to kilwinning it was about an hour so what do you do.

 

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1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

That's only because theirs more clubs south.  Give you an example camelon are 20 mins from kilsyth and the same from boness and linlithgow so what do you do.

We play haddington on saturday and that's 55 mins but when we went to kilwinning it was about an hour so what do you do.

 

Right now the only league structure in Scotland being asked to change is the Junior East Region. The only boundary that exists is the HL/LL. Everyone else gets to pick and choose, making up the rules to suit them.

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All the current structures, the eos and the sos are the leagues in place within the pyramid, so logically and objectively they shouldn't be asked to change.

There is a requirement for a wos league (Glasgow area is a rather large area currently uncovered, other than a couple sos teams who may well wish to apply to move to a wos league when it is formed and others in the wos who may wish to apy to the sos in due course)

There is no requirement to let Tayside clubs above the boundary line play lowland football. There is no requirement to have two leagues at the same level in the same area, particularly in the east. (this may be the case for the wos in a couple of instances but the wos and sos would be there to represent different areas, the east wouldn't)

This has been gone over for months and it is becoming so tedious to continually go over and over the same old stuff.

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4 hours ago, G4Mac said:

There is no requirement to let Tayside clubs above the boundary line play lowland football. 

And yet it has been a point open to discussion and can't be continually fobbed off as a misunderstanding of Iain Maxwell's.

September PWG, Maxwell's first, everyone discussed the issue of juniors entering all in with the EoS suggesting West & Tayside as the don't want a competitor East league.

October Professional Game Board presented with the Junior all in model as done deal.

November first and last Highland PWG meeting with no Tayside representation.

April(?) Maxwell sends out his Lowland pyramid playoff proposal with the East Region included intact.

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5 hours ago, G4Mac said:

All the current structures, the eos and the sos are the leagues in place within the pyramid, so logically and objectively they shouldn't be asked to change...

They are not being asked to change. They are being asked to agree to a playoff format change to accommodate the entry as is of two extra existing leagues and are blocking it. 

It's not at all clear that's a logical rather than a selfish posture. In England, the Southern League were in first and the Isthmian League joined later with an overlapping geography that got fixed considerably later. Pretty sure our other nearest neighbour, NI, still has overlapping tier 4 leagues as well because all the top existing intermediate leagues were simply tacked on as is beneath the three national divisions.

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2019 at 14:09, TFW said:

If you knew about bad deals some of these clubs did with buying grounds, the attitude to committee men about Astro pitches, their attitude to youth teams and the potential of having a youth academies then you would be shocked so don't be surprised if they decide to stay, some out of stubbornness, what chance has these clubs of continuing in the future.  What I will say, in 20/30 years time when the younger generations are older and joining the committees of teams and those people are out of the committee, you will see different attitude and more clearer visions for the clubs. its just progression

There's a reason England banned the use of artificial pitches in 1995. They're awful, and have no place in the game. Yes, I know the arguments about being able to be used 365 days per year and community involvement etc, but they are the dregs in terms of being able to play on them. The only reason we have them in Scotland isn't the weather but a lack of finance from other sources, ie SKY. There's no disguising the fact that they are very much second rate in relation to their grassy counterparts. I've yet to meet ant football fan who doesn't agree with that assertion.

We are also very early on into their history, and the extent of injuries - especially longer term ones - are still yet to be really identified. In short, we have them in Scotland because we have a second rate game, and administration, from the very top down into the non league set up.

Viva grass!

As someone who watches a lot of football on 3g, you barely notice the difference on a well maintained 3g pitch. the match is no different.    You get badly maintained 3g as you get badly maintained grass pitches (We've all seen horrendous games spoiled by the state of the pitch whether it's brick hard in summer or a soft quagmire in winter, or the grass too long, or more sand than grass etc). 

Similarly (as you're about to find out), you get very very good 3g pitches and very very good grass pitches.  However, the former you can play on every day, the latter you can't.   In order to obtain a Licence, a 3G pitch needs to pass a FIFA test, grass pitches have no such requirement.

Injuries is just another often quoted unproven myth, used by those who don't like 3g. There's a reason why evidence is "still to be identified", you can't identify what isn't there.

The Lowland U20 Development League is dominated by games on 3g pitches.  Kids are brought up on them, players train on them, and an increasing amount of games are played on them. Iceland do not bad using them, we play Internationals on them. 

We need to move on from this and stop repeating lazy stereotypes. As Scotland falls further behind the best European nations, overtaken by Iceland, some still moan about 3g.

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16 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

They are not being asked to change. They are being asked to agree to a playoff format change to accommodate the entry as is of two extra existing leagues and are blocking it. 

It's not at all clear that's a logical rather than a selfish posture. In England, the Southern League were in first and the Isthmian League joined later with an overlapping geography that got fixed considerably later. Pretty sure our other nearest neighbour, NI, still has overlapping tier 4 leagues as well because all the top existing intermediate leagues were simply tacked on as is beneath the three national divisions.

There's a difference between a bit of overlapping, and two large leagues covering exactly the same territory.  Still baffled as to why people think this is a good idea when there's a simple solution.

Also, why do we need to follow what England do? I'd say having overlapping leagues is a good guide as to how not to do it.

Edited by Burnie_man

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1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

There's a difference between a bit of overlapping, and two large leagues covering exactly the same territory....

The Southern and Isthmian leagues in England were very much a case of the latter. You should know the geography involved on that having followed Wimbledon in the past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_Isthmian_League

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_Southern_Football_League

It's easier to get things going on an all-encompassing genuine pyramid by incorporating existing leagues as is and fine-tuning things later on once it has bedded in rather than trying to force mergers and deliberately engineering scenarios that leave a lot of clubs continuing on the outside.

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