Junior football, what is the future?

[Arthurlie1981]

The problem is jump to where? The SFA need to agree to any change to the LL entry playoff and would have to sanction any new WoSFA. It's not clear that they will do that. It was easier to do in the east because the EoS already had all those approvals and the ability to accept new member as they see fit. An opportunity was missed at the SJFA and WRSJFA AGMs, because that's where clubs needed to get the issues related to the PWG negotiations sorted out.

I agree with your last statement. In terms of no alternative Ian Maxwell has been pretty clear he wants a pyramid feeder in the west and if it doesn’t look like happening I wouldn’t be surprised to see an alternative league being offered. This would also pressure the SJFA with them wanting to avoid a similar exodus that happened in the East leaving the completely irrelevant.

[Ginaro]

54 minutes ago, ibenji said:

Fairly new to the junior football community/scene/establishment/organisation can some one give us a summary of the 842 pages and what the pyramid is all about?

1. Just like in each Junior region where there is a system promotion/relegation between the two/three/four divisions, the Senior pyramid features 7 tiers allowing clubs to move up from the regional to national leagues - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_football_league_system
2. In the past couple of years, 28 Junior teams have moved to the senior pyramid (East of Scotland League), with two having gained promotion and are now playing at tier 5 (Lowland League)
3. To play at tier 5, clubs need an SFA licence which has various criteria including floodlights, and clubs must be in the senior pyramid to apply for a licence (which also gives clubs automatic access to the Scottish Cup)
4. The remaining Junior clubs voted for the SJFA to join the senior pyramid at last year's AGM
5. Negotiations are ongoing between various parties to see if this can happen, though naturally there has been a break over the summer

@Burnie_man Would be great if there was a summary in the OP detailing a timeline of this thread, much like the The Chronicles of the Banter Years

Edited August 20, 2019 by Ginaro

[gaz5]

Tayport and Scone are in the "North" part of the split though, so not quite as straight forward as you suggest. As are Luncarty albeit I forget whether they are actually north or south of the LL/HL line !!!

 

 

 

It really is.

 

All the teams in the South plus Scone and Tayport move to the EoS, leaving all the teams in the North in the Tayside league feeding the Highland League (based on current demarcation line).

 

Took me ages to come up with a way to resolve your completely insurmountable issue there. [emoji39][emoji1787][emoji1787]

 

In all seriousness, I reckon a fair few of those clubs don't care for the Pyramid anyway, so in my proposed way forward in the past above those who want to go, go, those who don't get the choice to stay Junior outside of the Pyramid.

 

Create the league's and let clubs make up their own minds.

 

 

 

[Ginaro]

Or you just move the line slightly south so that Jeanfield are the furthest north LL-area club, so that the current 10+8-team East Region North setup can continue as is, whilst the South teams merge with the EOS First Division so we have a 60-odd team East setup once again.

[Robert James]

4 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Why should West Lothian clubs be invited to join a future new West League, when their area is covered by the EoS, where there are already 3 WL members, and WL Junior clubs can apply for membership of that league at anytime? that just creates future problems.

I really can't see the PWG approaching anything differently from last season, or any real progress being made with new solutions. The same people will be round the table, and TJ will still be trying to keep his fiefdom intact.

The boundary between the Lowland and Highland regions is well defined by the SFA, and is not currently open to amendment. Nor should it be, in my opinion.

However, by comparison, there is no rigid borders between the West, East and South football (sub)regions. Therefore there are already clubs playing beyond their 'theoretical boundaries', giving location overlaps based on club choice and tradition.

Are you proposing that the PWG (or anybody else) should draw up fixed sub-boundaries within the Lowland pyramid area ?  If so, the PWG needs to make some'transfers of clubs to different leagues (assuming of course the West clubs join the pyramid), which in my view is unnecessary, and counter-productive, to the pyramid incorporating the West in 2020/21 . Examples of such anomalies include :

* transfering Kello Rovers from the West to the South of Scotland League

* moving Bonnyton Thistle in the opposite direction, ie South to West

* 'forcing Dunipace to transfer to the  (new) West 'feeder' League, as traditionally it had been a WRJFA club

* advising Bellshill Athletic and Carluke Rovers that  as a Mid Lothian clubs, they will be moved to the EoSL on becoming "senior"

* 'transfering'  Berwick Rangers and Tweedmouth Rangers to the English Northern League

* preventing Dalbeattie Star  from rejoining the East of Scotland League (rather than the SoSL), if in the event of the club's future relegation from the Lowland League

* etc........

If the West juniors join the pyramid, some overlap of clubs within the Lowland League's 3 sub-regions, will be appropriate at the outset, and possibly acceptable in the longer term. By comparison, some flexibility is permitted in the English pyramid, with clubs being able to apply for relocation, or to appea,l if they do not like their league allocation (as determined by the FA's 'leagues committee'.).

 

[Spyro]

2 minutes ago, Robert James said:

* advising Bellshill Athletic and Carluke Rovers that  as a Mid Lothian clubs, they will be moved to the EoSL on becoming "senior"

Think you need to look at a map... they’re both Lanarkshire

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, Spyro said:

Think you need to look at a map... they’re both Lanarkshire

Go check their postcodes !

Point taken however, as I am not advocating rigid boundaries between the East, West & South leagues. Some flexibility is essential, and would be welcomed by the clubs concerned., 

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, Robert James said:

The boundary between the Lowland and Highland regions is well defined by the SFA, and is not currently open to amendment. Nor should it be, in my opinion.

However, by comparison, there is no rigid borders between the West, East and South football (sub)regions. Therefore there are already clubs playing beyond their 'theoretical boundaries', giving location overlaps based on club choice and tradition.

Are you proposing that the PWG (or anybody else) should draw up fixed sub-boundaries within the Lowland pyramid area ?  If so, the PWG needs to make some'transfers of clubs to different leagues (assuming of course the West clubs join the pyramid), which in my view is unnecessary, and counter-productive, to the pyramid incorporating the West in 2020/21 . Examples of such anomalies include :

* transfering Kello Rovers from the West to the South of Scotland League

* moving Bonnyton Thistle in the opposite direction, ie South to West

* 'forcing Dunipace to transfer to the  (new) West 'feeder' League, as traditionally it had been a WRJFA club

* advising Bellshill Athletic and Carluke Rovers that  as a Mid Lothian clubs, they will be moved to the EoSL on becoming "senior"

* 'transfering'  Berwick Rangers and Tweedmouth Rangers to the English Northern League

* preventing Dalbeattie Star  from rejoining the East of Scotland League (rather than the SoSL), if in the event of the club's future relegation from the Lowland League

* etc........

If the West juniors join the pyramid, some overlap of clubs within the Lowland League's 3 sub-regions, will be appropriate at the outset, and possibly acceptable in the longer term. By comparison, some flexibility is permitted in the English pyramid, with clubs being able to apply for relocation, or to appea,l if they do not like their league allocation (as determined by the FA's 'leagues committee'.).

 

Dalbeattie were not a EoSFL club when they joined the LL. You might be thinking of Gretna and it has already been confirmed they would be relegated to SoSFL despite membership to the EoSFA.

[Le Tout P'ti FC]

Go check their postcodes !
Point taken however, as I am not advocating rigid boundaries between the East, West & South leagues. Some flexibility is essential, and would be welcomed by the clubs concerned., 

Carluke is ML8, ML for Motherwell. Midlothian postcodes are all EH, for Edinburgh.

Carluke is nearly an hour away from Midlothian.

[PastyMan]

18 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Go check their postcodes !

Point taken however, as I am not advocating rigid boundaries between the East, West & South leagues. Some flexibility is essential, and would be welcomed by the clubs concerned., 

The ML postcode area, also known as the Motherwell postcode area, is a group of postcode districts around Airdrie, Bellshill, Biggar, Carluke, Coatbridge, Hamilton, Lanark, Larkhall, Motherwell, Shotts, Strathaven, Newmains and Wishaw in Scotland.

That covers a hell of lot of Midlothian Junior clubs

[Hillonearth]

11 minutes ago, PastyMan said:

The ML postcode area, also known as the Motherwell postcode area, is a group of postcode districts around Airdrie, Bellshill, Biggar, Carluke, Coatbridge, Hamilton, Lanark, Larkhall, Motherwell, Shotts, Strathaven, Newmains and Wishaw in Scotland.

That covers a hell of lot of Midlothian Junior clubs

God help the clubs in Fife if we're gonny do it by postcode.

Although I'm sure it'll all eventually gel together.

[Cyclizine]

34 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Go check their postcodes !

Point taken however, as I am not advocating rigid boundaries between the East, West & South leagues. Some flexibility is essential, and would be welcomed by the clubs concerned., 

Fort William has a Perth postcode, Tobermory a Paisley one and Helmsdale an Orcadian one! Postcodes are for the logistical benefit of the Royal Mail and not for allocating a town to a specific county.

[stanley]

34 minutes ago, PastyMan said:

The ML postcode area, also known as the Motherwell postcode area, is a group of postcode districts around Airdrie, Bellshill, Biggar, Carluke, Coatbridge, Hamilton, Lanark, Larkhall, Motherwell, Shotts, Strathaven, Newmains and Wishaw in Scotland.

That covers a hell of lot of Midlothian Junior clubs

Wouldn't waste your time arguing with RJ.

[superbigal]

Any flexible boundary in the south or west by definition should allow flexibility in the north. Shouldn't be one rule for some.

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, superbigal said:

Any flexible boundary in the south or west by definition should allow flexibility in the north. Shouldn't be one rule for some.

 

 

People seem to be suggesting flexibility over a handful of clubs. You tend to talk about an entire region being reclassified. That's the difference.

[davie talbot]

On to page 5 already and burniemans posts mostly seem to have a rep of -7. Funny thing is it seems to be the same posters red dotting him who joined months later and seem to have disappeared immediately afterwards.

Well done on getting to page 5 [emoji851] .
As for the red dotting I have no idea as can't see it on my phone

[Marten]

45 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Fort William has a Perth postcode, Tobermory a Paisley one and Helmsdale an Orcadian one! Postcodes are for the logistical benefit of the Royal Mail and not for allocating a town to a specific county.

It always baffles me how people argue that a place belongs to a certain area based on their post code. When I lived in England I heard even far more such debates. I lived in Derby and the amount of time I heard people claim a town is in a different county than where it actually is due to the postcode is baffling. It's not like Royal Mail is some kind of government agency who set local authority boundaries...

Edited August 20, 2019 by Marten

[Marten]

4 hours ago, Spyro said:

Luncarty village is below, their clubhouse/pitch is above. Personally I think all Perth and Kinross teams should be in the LL catchment and not a ‘line’ dictating it.

If the current Tayside teams want to stay together, I think it's fair enough for the border to be moved a touch south to include Tayport & Scone in Tayside. That can be done without affecting any clubs currently in the pyramid (Jeanfield Swifts & Kinnoul are both further south than Scone & Tayport).

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

The boundary between the Lowland and Highland regions is well defined by the SFA, and is not currently open to amendment. Nor should it be, in my opinion.

However, by comparison, there is no rigid borders between the West, East and South football (sub)regions. Therefore there are already clubs playing beyond their 'theoretical boundaries', giving location overlaps based on club choice and tradition.

Are you proposing that the PWG (or anybody else) should draw up fixed sub-boundaries within the Lowland pyramid area ?  If so, the PWG needs to make some'transfers of clubs to different leagues (assuming of course the West clubs join the pyramid), which in my view is unnecessary, and counter-productive, to the pyramid incorporating the West in 2020/21 . Examples of such anomalies include :

* transfering Kello Rovers from the West to the South of Scotland League

* moving Bonnyton Thistle in the opposite direction, ie South to West

* 'forcing Dunipace to transfer to the  (new) West 'feeder' League, as traditionally it had been a WRJFA club

* advising Bellshill Athletic and Carluke Rovers that  as a Mid Lothian clubs, they will be moved to the EoSL on becoming "senior"

* 'transfering'  Berwick Rangers and Tweedmouth Rangers to the English Northern League

* preventing Dalbeattie Star  from rejoining the East of Scotland League (rather than the SoSL), if in the event of the club's future relegation from the Lowland League

* etc........

If the West juniors join the pyramid, some overlap of clubs within the Lowland League's 3 sub-regions, will be appropriate at the outset, and possibly acceptable in the longer term. By comparison, some flexibility is permitted in the English pyramid, with clubs being able to apply for relocation, or to appea,l if they do not like their league allocation (as determined by the FA's 'leagues committee'.).

 

West Lothian is covered by the East of Scotland League, the ML postcode would be covered by any future West of Scotland League.  The demarcation line is already there in Junior football which is largely adhered to, therefore it's not that hard to keep to it if and when a WoSL appears. Anything else would just lead to confusion and issues.

You appear to confuse Midlothian with an ML (Motherwell, Lanarkshire) postcode.

Dunipace are a Falkirk area club, that area is also covered by the EoS, and that is where they are.

Dalbeattie Star will go to the South of Scotland League if they were relegated from the LL.

Bonnyton joined their nearest senior league, they might well choose to move to a WoSFL, who knows.

Why would Berwick and Tweedmouth have to join an English League?

Here's another example, Livingston United and Pumpherston Juniors are situated between Blackburn United and Broxburn Athletic. Are you seriously suggesting they should both be allowed to join a West league if they wanted to, despite being bookended by EoS clubs? c'mon.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, Marten said:

If the current Tayside teams want to stay together, I think it's fair enough for the border to be moved a touch south to include Tayport & Scone in Tayside. That can be done without affecting any clubs currently in the pyramid (Jeanfield Swifts & Kinnoul are both further south than Scone & Tayport).

Since Kinnoull moved to the EoS the problem of lowering the boundary a bit to keep the leftover Tayside teams together is no longer a problem.