Junior football, what is the future?

[gaz5]

Bang on.  

Mental. Their boys will be pissed off and burnt oot by the time the season starts. 4/5 weeks of pre season and friendlies is plenty.

 

In your opinion. [emoji6] 

 

 

FWIW, pre season isn't run the chuckies off players these days, well ours certainly isn't. Our schedule contains the same number of "pre season" sessions as most other clubs, but we have more games (8 or 9) to prepare tactically, which players like, and more technical sessions prior to the league starting.

 

If it's all the same to you lads, I'd rather not pump the boys for 4 weeks and wait till the season starts before we're into technical training.

 

Plus we've been finished since April 9th, so the lads get a full 8 week break.

 

Not like when we were in the juniors and had to start later because we were playing 3 games a week till middle of June and it was 2 weeks off before starting again.[emoji39]

 

 

Our pre season is 6 weeks, building up to our tournament. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

 

[Jock Tamson]

 

In your opinion. [emoji6] 

 

 

FWIW, pre season isn't run the chuckies off players these days, well ours certainly isn't. Our schedule contains the same number of "pre season" sessions as most other clubs, but we have more games (8 or 9) to prepare tactically, which players like, and more technical sessions prior to the league starting.

 

If it's all the same to you lads, I'd rather not pump the boys for 4 weeks and wait till the season starts before we're into technical training.

 

Plus we've been finished since April 9th, so the lads get a full 8 week break.

 

Not like when we were in the juniors and had to start later because we were playing 3 games a week till middle of June and it was 2 weeks off before starting again.[emoji39]

 

 

Our pre season is 6 weeks, building up to our tournament. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

 

April 9th? Seriously? Excuse my ignorance, but what club are you with?

 

[gaz5]

 

Dunipace.

 

 

All of our fixtures were scheduled up in s fixture list at the start of the season, we have a 4G park and only had one game off during winter. Our season ran to schedule.

 

We weren't the first team finished in the EoS either, there were at least a few before us who had equally good runs of fixtures being on.

 

There was also no junior cup to hold up the fixture list and we played a few midweek games under our lights.

 

I think the last game in our conference finished 2 weeks after us maybe?

 

As was highlighted above, mainly cup games after that in EoS.

 

The scheduling really has been a breath of fresh air, all our players have loved knowing when they were going to finish and actually being able to have an "off season".

 

 

 

 

[Jock Tamson]

 
Dunipace.
 
 
All of our fixtures were scheduled up in s fixture list at the start of the season, we have a 4G park and only had one game off during winter. Our season ran to schedule.
 
We weren't the first team finished in the EoS either, there were at least a few before us who had equally good runs of fixtures being on.
 
There was also no junior cup to hold up the fixture list and we played a few midweek games under our lights.
 
I think the last game in our conference finished 2 weeks after us maybe?
 
As was highlighted above, mainly cup games after that in EoS.
 
The scheduling really has been a breath of fresh air, all our players have loved knowing when they were going to finish and actually being able to have an "off season".
 
 
 
 

Fair dos. Broughty will have similar next season in terms of the 4g and floodlighting.

[Dev]

From the Pyramid 2019/20 topic in the EoS Section but relevant to the Juniors:

“ijfife

Way Forward

  Stop “pyramid” discussions with SJFA. Agree to amicably continue as separate organisations.

  The Lowland League to have two feeder leagues, EOS and WOS.

  Increase number of teams in Lowland League to 18. Top teams in EOS and WOS automatically promoted. Bottom two teams in Lowland League automatically relegated. Third bottom team in Lowland League plays off against second top teams in EOS and WOS.

  Postpone floodlight requirement for Lowland League for two years, by which time any team in Lowland League without floodlights will be relegated and any team wishing to be promoted to Lowland League will require floodlights.

  Increase number of teams in League 2 to 12 with similar split arrangement to Scottish Premier League. Top teams in Lowland League and Highland League automatically promoted. Bottom two teams in League 2 automatically relegated. Third bottom team in League 2 plays off against second top teams in Lowland League and Highland League.

  Any ERSJFA teams wishing to join the EOS league system will enter at the bottom tier. If number joining was sufficiently high, a one season conference set-up, similar to the EOS FOR 2018-19, could be considered for leagues below EOS league.

  Any WRSJFA teams wishing to join the WOS league would join the league directly, similar to Kelty Hearts in the East of Scotland League in season 2017-18. If number joining was sufficiently high, a one season conference set-up, similar to the EOS for 2018-19, could be considered.

  If sufficient Highland Junior League teams interested in joining the pyramid, create a feeder league for Highland League. For promotion to Highland League, floodlights would be required. 

  All current ERSJFA teams eligible to join EOS leagues (forget the Tay divide). Depending on numbers, leagues below EOS could be regionally split e.g north and south of the Forth.

  Only teams that are part of the Highland League, EOS leagues and WOS league to be eligible for Scottish Cup entry. 

  Create a SFA Trophy competition open to members of the Highland League, EOS leagues and WOS league. Scottish Amatuer Cup winners could be invited to participate in this competition.

  Teams can elect not to be promoted to Lowland League.   In time, the floodlights requirement is likely to rule out weaker teams.”

AND

“Jambo'ness

I agree with much of what you propose.  However, there will be the usual 'ah but' brigade to pour oil on what could be smooth waters.

If we take stock, the 'way forward' has already started but was never going to be an easy ride.  The SFA have ensured that and the SJFA have been happy to hide behind them.

What has happened to Bonnyrigg this season is a disgrace but it won't happen again.  There is an irresistible force of clubs looking to progress and they will overcome the barriers put up by the SFA.  It really is just a matter of time. “

My Thoughts:

“There is much merit to what ijfife writes.

Don't forget that the  "SJFA hiding behind the SFA" started last summer after the majority of Junior clubs showed that they were up for the Pyramid and TJ admitted that he had been surprised by this. Since then there has been the SFA "moratorium" on Membership/Licencing applications, etc. This is not simply a co-incidence, as TJ is a member of staff at the SFA and would have known all about this - but said nothing about it himself to the Juniors/ex Juniors last summer! Co-incidence that nothing much has moved forward re the Pyramid ever since? “

[Pyramidic]

TJ is the SJFA Secretary and is not a member of staff of the SFA.  However he apparently works along the corridor from IM the Hampden Park  HQ. Consequently it has been suggested that he will have been "fully in the know" about the emerging difficulties with Club Licensing (re floodlighting) and the problems of the ERJFA and WRJFA joining the pyramid at Tier 6. It is difficult to imagine TJ and IM not sharing a coffee break together and exchanging latest developments.

I would imagine that TJ will be questioned at the forthcoming SJFA AGM and he will be able to put up a smokescreen that any conversations of this nature have to remain private.

I hope that it cannot be construed that private interests are taking precedence over those of the Junior membership as a whole.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Pyramidic

[Stag Nation]

1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

TJ is the SJFA Secretary and is not a member of staff of the SFA.  However he apparently works along the corridor from IM the Hampden Park  HQ. Consequently it has been suggested that he will have been "fully in the know" about the emerging difficulties with Club Licensing (re floodlighting) and the problems of the ERJFA and WRJFA joining the pyramid at Tier 6. It is difficult to imagine TJ and IM not sharing a coffee break together and exchanging latest developments.

It's not difficult at all. I find it easy to imagine that IM might think

1.  TJ runs a tinpot organisation, and/or

2.  TJ is several levels below IM in the food chain, and/or

3.  TJ is a ****

and so is not an obvious candidate for informal social interaction.

[superbigal]

TJ is the SJFA Secretary and is not a member of staff of the SFA.  However he apparently works along the corridor from IM the Hampden Park  HQ. Consequently it has been suggested that he will have been "fully in the know" about the emerging difficulties with Club Licensing (re floodlighting) and the problems of the ERJFA and WRJFA joining the pyramid at Tier 6. It is difficult to imagine TJ and IM not sharing a coffee break together and exchanging latest developments.
I would imagine that TJ will be questioned at the forthcoming SJFA AGM and he will be able to put up a smokescreen that any conversations of this nature have to remain private.
I hope that it cannot be construed that private interests are taking precedence over those of the Junior membership as a whole.

I know for a fact that the agm will raise more than 1 pertinant question regarding the pyramid. From the promises that were let down to the future plans or not as the case may be. The usual agm is a snorefest. This one promises anything but.

[FairWeatherFan]

32 minutes ago, superbigal said:

I know for a fact that the agm will raise more than 1 pertinant question regarding the pyramid. From the promises that were let down to the future plans or not as the case may be. The usual agm is a snorefest. This one promises anything but.

I'm not exactly holding my breath considering the speculation around how last year's EGM and how it ultimately went.

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

If any club had balls it’ll hold a v.o.n.c in TJ at the agm.

[Pyramidic]

8 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

If any club had balls it’ll hold a v.o.n.c in TJ at the agm.

There are some high profile examples of "Votes of No Confidence" on Football Executives

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/11/20/rebel-championship-clubs-mount-legal-challenge-vote-no-confidence/

https://www.90min.com/posts/4546035-parliament-passes-motion-of-no-confidence-in-english-football-association

THE SFA might also be included in a VONC!

[Sergeant Wilson]

4 hours ago, Stag Nation said:

It's not difficult at all. I find it easy to imagine that IM might think

1.  TJ runs a tinpot organisation, and/or

2.  TJ is several levels below IM in the food chain, and/or

3.  TJ is a ****

and so is not an obvious candidate for informal social interaction.

Don't forget IM has been shown up as a clown, put in place to follow orders by Petrie, Maxwell etc. The pyramid is low on their, and therefore his, priorities. TJ has been around long enough to box clever around these guys and any Junior upstarts. 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Sergeant Wilson

[Robert James]

6 hours ago, Dev said:

From the Pyramid 2019/20 topic in the EoS Section but relevant to the Juniors:

“ijfife

Way Forward

  Stop “pyramid” discussions with SJFA. Agree to amicably continue as separate organisations.

  The Lowland League to have two feeder leagues, EOS and WOS.

  Increase number of teams in Lowland League to 18. Top teams in EOS and WOS automatically promoted. Bottom two teams in Lowland League automatically relegated. Third bottom team in Lowland League plays off against second top teams in EOS and WOS.

  Postpone floodlight requirement for Lowland League for two years, by which time any team in Lowland League without floodlights will be relegated and any team wishing to be promoted to Lowland League will require floodlights.

  Increase number of teams in League 2 to 12 with similar split arrangement to Scottish Premier League. Top teams in Lowland League and Highland League automatically promoted. Bottom two teams in League 2 automatically relegated. Third bottom team in League 2 plays off against second top teams in Lowland League and Highland League.

  Any ERSJFA teams wishing to join the EOS league system will enter at the bottom tier. If number joining was sufficiently high, a one season conference set-up, similar to the EOS FOR 2018-19, could be considered for leagues below EOS league.

  Any WRSJFA teams wishing to join the WOS league would join the league directly, similar to Kelty Hearts in the East of Scotland League in season 2017-18. If number joining was sufficiently high, a one season conference set-up, similar to the EOS for 2018-19, could be considered.

  If sufficient Highland Junior League teams interested in joining the pyramid, create a feeder league for Highland League. For promotion to Highland League, floodlights would be required. 

  All current ERSJFA teams eligible to join EOS leagues (forget the Tay divide). Depending on numbers, leagues below EOS could be regionally split e.g north and south of the Forth.

  Only teams that are part of the Highland League, EOS leagues and WOS league to be eligible for Scottish Cup entry. 

  Create a SFA Trophy competition open to members of the Highland League, EOS leagues and WOS league. Scottish Amatuer Cup winners could be invited to participate in this competition.

  Teams can elect not to be promoted to Lowland League.   In time, the floodlights requirement is likely to rule out weaker teams.”

AND

“Jambo'ness

I agree with much of what you propose.  However, there will be the usual 'ah but' brigade to pour oil on what could be smooth waters.

If we take stock, the 'way forward' has already started but was never going to be an easy ride.  The SFA have ensured that and the SJFA have been happy to hide behind them.

What has happened to Bonnyrigg this season is a disgrace but it won't happen again.  There is an irresistible force of clubs looking to progress and they will overcome the barriers put up by the SFA.  It really is just a matter of time. “

My Thoughts:

“There is much merit to what ijfife writes.

Don't forget that the  "SJFA hiding behind the SFA" started last summer after the majority of Junior clubs showed that they were up for the Pyramid and TJ admitted that he had been surprised by this. Since then there has been the SFA "moratorium" on Membership/Licencing applications, etc. This is not simply a co-incidence, as TJ is a member of staff at the SFA and would have known all about this - but said nothing about it himself to the Juniors/ex Juniors last summer! Co-incidence that nothing much has moved forward re the Pyramid ever since? “

 

I agree with some of your suggestions, eg (i) floodlights to be a requirement for all Lowland clubs (in 2 years time) or face relegation, (ii) an 18 team Lowland  league with 2 relegation places each season, (iii) the bottom  "SPFL club 42" to be relegated each season (but not the penultimate club (iii)) a WoS pyramid league being established, (v) the treatment of Bonnyrigg, etc. There are however some "no no's" in my opinion. These are :

SPFL 2 will not increase from 10 to 12 clubs,  copying the premier league's format. The present structure is supported by league clubs.

Whilst the East Region Juniors south of the Tay Bridge could be incorporated into the EoSL, whereas the Dundee and Angus clubs cannot, unless the boundary is changed by the SFA.  East Region 'south' clubs should be incorporated into the East of Scotland League, but at present these clubs don't wish to do so, and there is no enforcement mechanism,

Existing Full SFA Member clubs, not currently playing in the Highland, Lowland, EoS and proposed WoS, should NOT be prevented from entering the Scottish Cup, as some of them have been in continuous membership for 50+ years, and their exclusion is unnecessary and unfair.

Interesting non the less.

 

 

[Guest]

You also can't have a club winning a league and refusing promotion..... Big no no for me. That shows a clear lack of commitment to the pyramid. I'd agree with the other no no points aswell.

Sadly, with the SFA leading and steering this, nothing will change. In fact if we were to put the craziest idea that was unworkable down on paper, seal it in an envelope and await the actual outcome, then reopen the envelope..... I'd wager that the idea written down that was crazy and unworkable is the direction of travel...... Sadly.

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, G4Mac said:

You also can't have a club winning a league and refusing promotion..... Big no no for me. That shows a clear lack of commitment to the pyramid. I'd agree with the other no no points aswell.

Sadly, with the SFA leading and steering this, nothing will change. In fact if we were to put the craziest idea that was unworkable down on paper, seal it in an envelope and await the actual outcome, then reopen the envelope..... I'd wager that the idea written down that was crazy and unworkable is the direction of travel...... Sadly.

I agree that at this level , promotion to Tier 5 has to be mandatory.  Of course under the existing promotion criteria, clubs could deliberately avoid promotion to Tier 5, if they decided they didn't want promotion to the Highland or Lowland Leagues, and have avoided this possibility, by not having (or applying for) an SFA licence.  

This raises the question, as to  why would a club join the pyramid if they don't have any ambition to rise above Tier 6 ?  We know that this could happen, especially if (for example) some of the  (West) Juniors join the pyramid, solely because they want to remain intact, in a junior league structure,  but have no interest in promotion to tier 5 or beyond. In theory, this situation already exists in the South of Scotland League, where only 5 of the 16 clubs have an SFA licence, and those that are licensed, may not be too keen to be promoted.

However, I am of the view that licensed clubs at Tier 6  cannot refuse promotion from Tier 6 to Tier 5. Having a licence means that the clubs concerned have "committed to the pyramid", and must therefore follow its rules and principles.  

Also, if a champion club in any of the current/future "pyramid feeder leagues" is NOT licensed, then the highest licensed club finishing 2nd or 3rd could  be required to replace them in the promotion play-offs ? But would this be fair to the other 'feeder league' champions ? Possibly not.

It would be interesting to hear the views of others on this forum, about this issue ?  

[shuggie123]

7 hours ago, Robert James said:

I agree that at this level , promotion to Tier 5 has to be mandatory.  Of course under the existing promotion criteria, clubs could deliberately avoid promotion to Tier 5, if they decided they didn't want promotion to the Highland or Lowland Leagues, and have avoided this possibility, by not having (or applying for) an SFA licence.  

This raises the question, as to  why would a club join the pyramid if they don't have any ambition to rise above Tier 6 ?  We know that this could happen, especially if (for example) some of the  (West) Juniors join the pyramid, solely because they want to remain intact, in a junior league structure,  but have no interest in promotion to tier 5 or beyond. In theory, this situation already exists in the South of Scotland League, where only 5 of the 16 clubs have an SFA licence, and those that are licensed, may not be too keen to be promoted.

However, I am of the view that licensed clubs at Tier 6  cannot refuse promotion from Tier 6 to Tier 5. Having a licence means that the clubs concerned have "committed to the pyramid", and must therefore follow its rules and principles.  

Also, if a champion club in any of the current/future "pyramid feeder leagues" is NOT licensed, then the highest licensed club finishing 2nd or 3rd could  be required to replace them in the promotion play-offs ? But would this be fair to the other 'feeder league' champions ? Possibly not.

It would be interesting to hear the views of others on this forum, about this issue ?  

What if a club wins the promotion place but doesn't have and can't afford floodlights? They can't be forced to install them if they can't afford it, so how can promotion be mandatory?

[pipedreamer]

13 minutes ago, shuggie123 said:

What if a club wins the promotion place but doesn't have and can't afford floodlights? They can't be forced to install them if they can't afford it, so how can promotion be mandatory?

Whoosh... straight over your head.

If a club has a license which means they can be promoted then they cannot decline to be promoted. Not applying for a license means they wouldn’t be eligible for promotion anyway. No floodlights, no license, not eligible to be promoted to tier 5. 

[santheman]

8 hours ago, Robert James said:

I agree that at this level , promotion to Tier 5 has to be mandatory.  Of course under the existing promotion criteria, clubs could deliberately avoid promotion to Tier 5, if they decided they didn't want promotion to the Highland or Lowland Leagues, and have avoided this possibility, by not having (or applying for) an SFA licence.  

This raises the question, as to  why would a club join the pyramid if they don't have any ambition to rise above Tier 6 ?  We know that this could happen, especially if (for example) some of the  (West) Juniors join the pyramid, solely because they want to remain intact, in a junior league structure,  but have no interest in promotion to tier 5 or beyond. In theory, this situation already exists in the South of Scotland League, where only 5 of the 16 clubs have an SFA licence, and those that are licensed, may not be too keen to be promoted.

However, I am of the view that licensed clubs at Tier 6  cannot refuse promotion from Tier 6 to Tier 5. Having a licence means that the clubs concerned have "committed to the pyramid", and must therefore follow its rules and principles.  

Also, if a champion club in any of the current/future "pyramid feeder leagues" is NOT licensed, then the highest licensed club finishing 2nd or 3rd could  be required to replace them in the promotion play-offs ? But would this be fair to the other 'feeder league' champions ? Possibly not.

It would be interesting to hear the views of others on this forum, about this issue ?  

So what "punishment" would you inflict on any club who refused promotion. A slap on the wrist? A fine?  demotion to tier 7/8/9? Denied entry to the Scottish Cup? Revoking of their licence?

[pipedreamer]

2 minutes ago, santheman said:

So what "punishment" would you inflict on any club who refused promotion. A slap on the wrist? A fine?  demotion to tier 7/8/9? Denied entry to the Scottish Cup? Revoking of their licence?

If you deny promotion then denying entry to the Scottish Cup would be the most likely punishment, or withdrawal of prize money to the club concerned. Or something as simple as the license payment being withdrawn due to denying promotion.

[FairWeatherFan]

Not a great thing to see. In amongst the messages of support, there seems to be some offers to help out.