Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

The moon maybe?

I'm sure you could of used something more original after the decades of digs Clydebank have gotten for their ground issues.

[Kilbowie Benches]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm sure you could of used something more original after the decades of digs Clydebank have gotten for their ground issues.

I’m sure they’ll get over it 

[Rab B Nesbit]

1 hour ago, Marshmallo said:

You seem pretty upset to me tbh chief.

 ... talk us through getting upset chief. 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Rab B Nesbit

[Guest]

I don't know tj personally, so to suggest I don't like him is a flawed argument. What I don't like is when someone or some organisation (and their fan base) openly try and flaunt a situation to suit their own needs, expecting all others to simply fall in line. 

Let's face it, the sjfa had no interest in becoming involved in the pyramid because they felt they had a better product at the time and they didn't think the day would come where clubs would leave en masse. (hindsight is a fantastic thing though) 

What is frustrating at the moment is that the sjfa (and some junior fans) have had no interest in 5 years, and are making no concessions in their attempts to integrate. They are expecting others to make all the concessions and roll over because the juniors now want to play ball. In any walk of life, business or pleasure, when you pass on a deal or don't pursue something because it doesn't interest you, you can't go back after the deadline (now 5 years later) and ask for the same or in fact a better deal. It isn't a reasonable thing to do. 

They claim to be acting on everyone's behalf, but the noth is a forgotten element, as is those clubs North of the tay.

If the fines don't in some part go to paying a salary, then some other monetary agreement will have been provided, which means he is taking money that should go to the clubs (for me anyway) .... Either way, if the role no longer exists, someone loses a job. I realise this is a harsh outcome and in no way do I support someone losing their job, but in every organisational restructuring around the globe this sort of thing happens, sadly. 

I'd think the ersjfa clubs would be happy in regionalised conferences at tier 7 under the Premier league, particularly given they have regionalised things for next season anyway. The only sticking point would be the clubs who are North of the tay line, there would be little point in playing in a set up that you can't get promoted to the top league. 

[FairWeatherFan]

The EoS asked for the West Region & East Region to be represented on the PWG and they also asked for them to be represented on the Non-Professional Game Board.

Quote

AR asked why the SJFA leagues were not represented at this meeting. TJ confirmed that he was the representative.

Quote

AR said that he expected the new leagues to be represented at the NPGB. LD confirmed that they were already represented by TJ.

Why wouldn't the SJFA want greater representation for its members?

[Arthurlie1981]

You seem pretty upset to me tbh chief.

I am angry. Clubs in the west are (imo) being stopped from progressing by clubs in the EOSFL who have not offered an alternative and want the status quo. And I know that clubs in the east have no objection but from my prospective by being obstructive they know that the most likely outcome is no change.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

I am angry. Clubs in the west are (imo) being stopped from progressing by clubs in the EOSFL who have not offered an alternative and want the status quo. And I know that clubs in the east have no objection but from my prospective by being obstructive they know that the most likely outcome is no change.

That's not true either. Maybe you need to try and understand this from a LL and EoS perspective.  G4Mac has explained it pretty much spot on.

If you're going to be angry, direct it towards those who were telling you it was a done deal when it never was.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Arthurlie1981]

Wrong, both the Lowland League and EoS want to see absolute parity in discipline, to be administered by the SFA like all other senior leagues.  A very reasonable expectation.  The SFA are happy with the SJFA doing it as it's a free and easy way out rather than finding more resource to administer it themselves.
TJ is quoted in PWG minutes as saying fines are income for the SJFA and they want them to remain, make of that what you will.

You know that’s its the regions that collect for themselves and the SJFA only collect for the Scottish. You were involved in running a junior club so you know that the minute is inaccurate or mistaken.

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

You know that’s its the regions that collect for themselves and the SJFA only collect for the Scottish. You were involved in running a junior club so you know that the minute is inaccurate or mistaken.

So explain why TJ wants to keep fines?  From November PWG minutes;

"AR suggested that discipline for all leagues should be the same and, due to this, felt that fines for SJFA players should no longer apply. TJ & IMcQ explained that the fines are used to generate income for the SJFA and its regions. TJ advised that the SJFA administers its own player discipline and suspensions, mainly through volounteers, and the money generated by disciplinary fines was an essential part of these processes. "

Edited April 1, 2019 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

I am angry. Clubs in the west are (imo) being stopped from progressing by clubs in the EOSFL who have not offered an alternative and want the status quo. And I know that clubs in the east have no objection but from my prospective by being obstructive they know that the most likely outcome is no change.

The definitely don't want the status quo go back to over a year ago and the EoS prospectus going about. You can see on the list was more promotion opportunities to the Lowland League. They weren't even happy with the status quo before the Juniors entered the fray. Now you're asking them to accept a proposal that offers an even harder path to the Lowland League.

And by all accounts the did offer an alternative of sorts with the West and Tayside leagues

On 28/02/2018 at 07:17, kefc said:

East Of Scotland Website with link banner for new applicants to join the League.

Deadline 31st March - http://www.eosfl.com/

What does the East of Scotland Football League have to offer?

• Membership of EOSFL which confirms acceptance of and commitment to the pyramid system thereby satisfying a mandatory requirement of being granted a Club Licence.

• Automatic entry to the Scottish Cup for Champion Club irrespective of licencing status which will generate a minimum income in excess of £3,000

• 3 ways of Scottish Cup Entry, EOS & SOS League Champions, Alex Jack Cup Winner, Any Licenced Club

• £3,000 Funding towards ground improvements available to all un-licenced  clubs looking to gain their SFA Licence

• Up to £10,000 funding as an EOS club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements.

• Our ambition is to have all Members licenced as soon as possible and thereby automatically in the Scottish Cup every year.

• Very likely more promotion places will be available to enter the Lowland League from Tier 6

• Depending on interest from that area a possible West Of Scotland division would be looked at for tier 6

• SFA Sports First Aid courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge). SFA Licence compliant

• All clubs supplied with a defibrillator and associated training. SFA Licence compliant

• Bespoke personalised first aid bag.

• Personal Accident and Liability insurance incl. player to player liability paid for by the League. SFA  Licence compliant

• Match balls and training balls supplied each season.

• Bespoke goalkeeping courses.

• Coaching courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge) up to C Licence level.

• Prize money for those Clubs finishing in the top four in the league.

• A sound organisational structure with fixtures issued on a seasonal basis.

• In combination with the Scottish Lowland League and the South of Scotland League an U20 development league for the development of a player pathway.

• Automatic entry for the U20 team into the Scottish Youth Cup.

 

[Arthurlie1981]

I don't know tj personally, so to suggest I don't like him is a flawed argument. What I don't like is when someone or some organisation (and their fan base) openly try and flaunt a situation to suit their own needs, expecting all others to simply fall in line. 
Let's face it, the sjfa had no interest in becoming involved in the pyramid because they felt they had a better product at the time and they didn't think the day would come where clubs would leave en masse. (hindsight is a fantastic thing though) 
What is frustrating at the moment is that the sjfa (and some junior fans) have had no interest in 5 years, and are making no concessions in their attempts to integrate. They are expecting others to make all the concessions and roll over because the juniors now want to play ball. In any walk of life, business or pleasure, when you pass on a deal or don't pursue something because it doesn't interest you, you can't go back after the deadline (now 5 years later) and ask for the same or in fact a better deal. It isn't a reasonable thing to do. 
They claim to be acting on everyone's behalf, but the noth is a forgotten element, as is those clubs North of the tay.
If the fines don't in some part go to paying a salary, then some other monetary agreement will have been provided, which means he is taking money that should go to the clubs (for me anyway) .... Either way, if the role no longer exists, someone loses a job. I realise this is a harsh outcome and in no way do I support someone losing their job, but in every organisational restructuring around the globe this sort of thing happens, sadly. 
I'd think the ersjfa clubs would be happy in regionalised conferences at tier 7 under the Premier league, particularly given they have regionalised things for next season anyway. The only sticking point would be the clubs who are North of the tay line, there would be little point in playing in a set up that you can't get promoted to the top league. 

There are 2 sides to every story. My frustration is that finally this looked like a breakthrough but it seems unlikely this will move forward.

I know for a us (and I am sure others) when asked for information from the LL at its beginning at its expansion responses were poor or no responses were received from either them or the SFA. Some junior clubs were interested but I know from our prospective we felt put off with no plan for the west and no idea how they were going to take it forward.

Let be honest here. The LL was set up by the EOSFL to protect and suit their members as they were a senior league and the clubs were only looking out for themselves and damn everyone else.

Is this history repeating , I hope not but without any concessions in the east then it looks unlikely.

[Arthurlie1981]

I imagine some of the players who are fined are pretty upset, particularly when their senior counterparts (some earning 100 times as much) don't.

Can’t speak for them but it just shows you that no one has ever mentioned the different discipline structures until they debate on this happened. The SJFA administering it is a red hearing anyway the regions administer it for league and regional cups. The SJFA only do it for the Scottish. I would expect that reinstatement and the percentage of the gates for cups will make a far bigger portion of the wages (both of which I would see the back off)

[Burnie_man]

Can’t speak for them but it just shows you that no one has ever mentioned the different discipline structures until they debate on this happened. The SJFA administering it is a red hearing anyway the regions administer it for league and regional cups. The SJFA only do it for the Scottish. I would expect that reinstatement and the percentage of the gates for cups will make a far bigger portion of the wages (both of which I would see the back off)

The SFA administer discipline for the senior leagues. There is no such thing as an EoS discipline committee. All the LL and EoS are asking for is for the same to be applied across all leagues. Fair?

This, plus the situation in the east which the SFA and SJFA have chosen to ignore in their proposals.

The LL and the EoS are not the people to get angry at, look closer to home.

[Burnie_man]

The EoS asked for the West Region & East Region to be represented on the PWG and they also asked for them to be represented on the Non-Professional Game Board.

AR asked why the SJFA leagues were not represented at this meeting. TJ confirmed that he was the representative.

AR said that he expected the new leagues to be represented at the NPGB. LD confirmed that they were already represented by TJ.

Why wouldn't the SJFA want greater representation for its members?
I wonder why.

[Kilbowie Benches]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The SFA administer discipline for the senior leagues. There is no such thing as an EoS discipline committee. All the LL and EoS are asking for is for the same to be applied across all leagues. Fair?

This, plus the situation in the east which the SFA and SJFA have chosen to ignore in their proposals.

The LL and the EoS are not the people to get angry at, look closer to home.

The SFA have said they are unable to administer the discipline and their staff are perfectly happy having discussed all the ins and outs of aligning it for play off purposes for the regions to continue to administer their own.

Any objection to that is just moaning for the sake of it and will be seen as such by the SFA board.

[FairWeatherFan]

Quote

IM asked TJ & IMcQ if they would still impose fines on players, as well as a suspension. TJ stated that they would still impose fines because it does not impact on the incurring or serving of player suspensions.

Quote

TJ & IMcQ explained that the fines are used to generate income for the SJFA and its regions. TJ advised that the SJFA administers its own player discipline and suspensions, mainly through volunteers, and the money generated by disciplinary fines was an essential part of these processes.

Maybe its me but I associate volunteering as doing something for free. So if its mainly done for free already it can't be that expensive. Why not just set a fixed fee for every club for the year, rather than have a method that can lead to profiteering

[Burnie_man]

The SFA have said they are unable to administer the discipline and their staff are perfectly happy having discussed all the ins and outs of aligning it for play off purposes for the regions to continue to administer their own.
Any objection to that is just moaning for the sake of it and will be seen as such by the SFA board.

It's clearly not, but then that doesn't suit your agenda, and puts you in a bit of a sticky position.

[Marshmallo]

56 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

I am angry. Clubs in the west are (imo) being stopped from progressing by clubs in the EOSFL who have not offered an alternative and want the status quo. And I know that clubs in the east have no objection but from my prospective by being obstructive they know that the most likely outcome is no change.

 

The SJFA are a busted flush. Push for your own club to band with others and join the SoS en masse, or get a separate West league into the pyramid. There are better individuals at the bigger clubs, such as Arthurlie, than there are in the Junior governing body. 

[Kilbowie Benches]

17 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

27 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

The SFA have said they are unable to administer the discipline and their staff are perfectly happy having discussed all the ins and outs of aligning it for play off purposes for the regions to continue to administer their own.
Any objection to that is just moaning for the sake of it and will be seen as such by the SFA board.

It's clearly not, but then that doesn't suit your agenda, and puts you in a bit of a sticky position.

It clearly is,but then that doesn’t suit your agenda,and puts you in a bit of a sticky position.

[Burnie_man]

25 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Maybe its me but I associate volunteering as doing something for free. So if its mainly done for free already it can't be that expensive. Why not just set a fixed fee for every club for the year, rather than have a method that can lead to profiteering

Well when I was involved, the ERJFA Secretary was getting north of £6k a year, probably more now, and I understand the WRJFA Secretary was being paid a lot more. There was other "honoraria" involved as well.  Those "volunteers" are well rewarded for what they do, and explains why they want to keep the fines.