Junior football, what is the future?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

The vote was at the AGM so that’s a no.

Its not overstating anything,read the e mail from Maxwell.

Ive had enough of this now as it just silly.

We’ll see what happens.

Kilbowie I get you believe that the SFA want the sjfa in at a specific tier, but pretty much every other attending association at the pwg have declined to agree with the email I think you refer to. 

Do the sfa want a working pyramid, yes. Would they prefer the juniors to be part of it, yes. Does everyone else want the juniors part of it, yes. Will the juniors add more quality to the pyramid, yes... and will the bigger and better junior sides dislodge some of the LL teams in time, probably another yes. 

However, what we are all forgetting is that the sjfa can't now turn up a dictate what level they will enter at across the board. The west for sjfa entry at tier 6 is a penalty kick, the east though, as has been stated many times, is a completely different prospect given there is already a tier 6 league that has been established for many seasons. 

Concessions will have to be made by the sjfa if they are to follow through on their clubs wishes and join the pyramid. Unless of course they want to suggest they tried but ultimately couldn't get what their clubs wanted across the board (tier 6 entry for all) in some form of self preservation on the sjfa leaderships part to attempt to keep what they have.....or maybe I'm way off.... Who knows, time will ultimately lay everything bare for us all to see. 

[Sidney Lumet]

Kilbowie I get you believe that the SFA want the sjfa in at a specific tier, but pretty much every other attending association at the pwg have declined to agree with the email I think you refer to. 
Do the sfa want a working pyramid, yes. Would they prefer the juniors to be part of it, yes. Does everyone else want the juniors part of it, yes. Will the juniors add more quality to the pyramid, yes... and will the bigger and better junior sides dislodge some of the LL teams in time, probably another yes. 
However, what we are all forgetting is that the sjfa can't now turn up a dictate what level they will enter at across the board. The west for sjfa entry at tier 6 is a penalty kick, the east though, as has been stated many times, is a completely different prospect given there is already a tier 6 league that has been established for many seasons. 
Concessions will have to be made by the sjfa if they are to follow through on their clubs wishes and join the pyramid. Unless of course they want to suggest they tried but ultimately couldn't get what their clubs wanted across the board (tier 6 entry for all) in some form of self preservation on the sjfa leaderships part to attempt to keep what they have.....or maybe I'm way off.... Who knows, time will ultimately lay everything bare for us all to see. 

Oh, I’m not at all sure you’re way off - I think you may be pretty much all the way to being 100% correct.

[Robert James]

16 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Kilbowie I get you believe that the SFA want the sjfa in at a specific tier, but pretty much every other attending association at the pwg have declined to agree with the email I think you refer to. 

Do the sfa want a working pyramid, yes. Would they prefer the juniors to be part of it, yes. Does everyone else want the juniors part of it, yes. Will the juniors add more quality to the pyramid, yes... and will the bigger and better junior sides dislodge some of the LL teams in time, probably another yes. 

However, what we are all forgetting is that the sjfa can't now turn up a dictate what level they will enter at across the board. The west for sjfa entry at tier 6 is a penalty kick, the east though, as has been stated many times, is a completely different prospect given there is already a tier 6 league that has been established for many seasons. 

Concessions will have to be made by the sjfa if they are to follow through on their clubs wishes and join the pyramid. Unless of course they want to suggest they tried but ultimately couldn't get what their clubs wanted across the board (tier 6 entry for all) in some form of self preservation on the sjfa leaderships part to attempt to keep what they have.....or maybe I'm way off.... Who knows, time will ultimately lay everything bare for us all to see. 

A very good assessment of the situation, albeit without addressing the HFL/LL 'boundary' issue, which the SPFL also needs to consider before any pyramid changes are/are not agreed re: clubs north of the Tay.   Also, I understand that the HFL has yet to agree any changes in relation to  the North Region Juniors becoming a feeder league at tiers 6 & 7.

Will the next meeting of the PWG (date unknown ?) progress/resolve these issues in the near future, and submit its recommendations to the SFA ?  Probably not in my view. And from reading some of the other comments on this forum, there does not appear to be any real urgency from west clubs about joining the pyramid next season. Perhaps I am wrong ?

[Arthurlie1981]

Pyramid entry was supposedly a 'done deal' but now it looks like the SFA are stepping back and letting others get on with it, which is fair enough. 

Is there anything definitive, in writing, anywhere, which confirms that progress has been made and that pyramid entry can be delivered by SJFA for next season?

It really doesn't need a majority of clubs to make a WoS league happen. 

It just requires another 9 to step up to the plate with Clydebank and get the thing done.

It looks like this is not going to get sorted by others, the clubs must do it for themselves.

The EoS assoc would no doubt extend their offer from last season and assist with rules / constitution and any questions that might crop up - it's all boiler-plate stuff substituting the word 'East' with 'West'. 

It needs 10 clubs with a common purpose and commitment and 4 competent people in the whole of the West of Scotland to take up the office bearer positions.

Copy the website using exactly the same format as EoS with a contact email address at the top and an application form to fill out.

SOMEBODY PLEASE DO IT.

Or we'll all be here in another years time, still fannying about and wondering what is going on behind the scenes.

 

 

It’s a gamble for west region clubs financially. If the new WoSFL is seen as inferior to the west region then fan numbers will fall. I have watched the number of our fans fall away sharply over the last few years only to crater at the start of this season after relegation. People in Barrhead still care about Arthurlie but they won’t go and watch what they think is a poor product.

 

A west league will only work if one or more of the big guns agrees to move. If Pollok went I’m sure Arthurlie would, same with Cumnock if Talbot went. The people running the clubs have to look at the financial circumstances first.

 

Clydebank are different with their fan base and their recent history which allows them to take a gamble to move to the east.

 

I believe it will be all go or no one goes (bar Clydebank) I hope i am wrong but get a funny feeling we might get an announcement at the end of March from the SJFA saying ‘we tried for tier 6 which is what you voted for but the EoS blocked it so it’s off’

[11TH MAY 1991]

Does anybody know what happened at the West Committee meeting on Tuesday night?

[Robert James]

12 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

It’s a gamble for west region clubs financially. If the new WoSFL is seen as inferior to the west region then fan numbers will fall. I have watched the number of our fans fall away sharply over the last few years only to crater at the start of this season after relegation. People in Barrhead still care about Arthurlie but they won’t go and watch what they think is a poor product.

A west league will only work if one or more of the big guns agrees to move. If Pollok went I’m sure Arthurlie would, same with Cumnock if Talbot went. The people running the clubs have to look at the financial circumstances first.

Clydebank are different with their fan base and their recent history which allows them to take a gamble to move to the east.

I believe it will be all go or no one goes (bar Clydebank) I hope i am wrong but get a funny feeling we might get an announcement at the end of March from the SJFA saying ‘we tried for tier 6 which is what you voted for but the EoS blocked it so it’s off’

Any EoS objection is only likely to the relate to the formation of a second ERJFA pyramid feeder league at tiers 6 or 7 IMO. The LL may also reject this as it would provide duplicate feeder leagues in the east, which would unbalance the pyramid.  

[Burnie_man]

 
It’s a gamble for west region clubs financially. If the new WoSFL is seen as inferior to the west region then fan numbers will fall. I have watched the number of our fans fall away sharply over the last few years only to crater at the start of this season after relegation. People in Barrhead still care about Arthurlie but they won’t go and watch what they think is a poor product.
 
A west league will only work if one or more of the big guns agrees to move. If Pollok went I’m sure Arthurlie would, same with Cumnock if Talbot went. The people running the clubs have to look at the financial circumstances first.
 
Clydebank are different with their fan base and their recent history which allows them to take a gamble to move to the east.
 
I believe it will be all go or no one goes (bar Clydebank) I hope i am wrong but get a funny feeling we might get an announcement at the end of March from the SJFA saying ‘we tried for tier 6 which is what you voted for but the EoS blocked it so it’s off’

The WRJFA have it in their power to join the Pyramid next season, there are no objections to that happening within the PWG, they dont need the SJFA.

Speak directly to PWG
Call an EGM
Adopt new rules to mirror the EoS
Resign SJFA membership
Move into Pyramid as en-masse

From next season the only change (apart from rules which are minor) would be Junior Cup replaced by South Challenge Cup. All other cups can be retained. Leagues remain unchanged. Promotion and relegation unchanged. Clubs can enter Licencing process if they choose.

Unlikely to happen given the influence of the SJFA in the west, but the option is there if clubs want it. The situation in the east doesn't stop this, or a version of it, from happening.

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The WRJFA have it in their power to join the Pyramid next season, there are no objections to that happening within the PWG, they dont need the SJFA.

Speak directly to PWG
Call an EGM
Adopt new rules to mirror the EoS
Resign SJFA membership
Move into Pyramid as en-masse

From next season the only change (apart from rules which are minor) would be Junior Cup replaced by South Challenge Cup. All other cups can be retained. Leagues remain unchanged. Promotion and relegation unchanged. Clubs can enter Licencing process if they choose.

Unlikely to happen given the influence of the SJFA in the west, but the option is there if clubs want it. The situation in the east doesn't stop this, or a version of it, from happening.

 

Exactly.

And maybe the winners of West, East, South and North regional cups could enter the semi finals of the 'Scottish Junior Cup' which is played at the end of the season once promotion / relegation etc is resolved.

 

 

[santheman]

24 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The WRJFA have it in their power to join the Pyramid next season, there are no objections to that happening within the PWG, they dont need the SJFA.

Speak directly to PWG
Call an EGM
Adopt new rules to mirror the EoS
Resign SJFA membership
Move into Pyramid as en-masse

From next season the only change (apart from rules which are minor) would be Junior Cup replaced by South Challenge Cup. All other cups can be retained. Leagues remain unchanged. Promotion and relegation unchanged. Clubs can enter Licencing process if they choose.

Unlikely to happen given the influence of the SJFA in the west, but the option is there if clubs want it. The situation in the east doesn't stop this, or a version of it, from happening.

 

Dream on Burnie.

There is no great  appetite outside a few of the top clubs to go it alone out with the SJFA.

Even if the WRJFA called an EGM (which they won't ) I doubt if the majority of clubs would vote for it.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, santheman said:

Dream on Burnie.

There is no great  appetite outside a few of the top clubs to go it alone out with the SJFA.

Even if the WRJFA called an EGM (which they won't ) I doubt if the majority of clubs would vote for it.

I said it was unlikely, but the option is there.

Didn't the vast majority of Junior clubs want to enter the Pyramid, wasn't the vote almost unanimous?

People need to lose this comfort blanket of the SJFA if they want that to happen, they do nothing for the game and their all-or-nothing approach to this is holding the game back.

[GNU_Linux]

I said it was unlikely, but the option is there.

Didn't the vast majority of Junior clubs want to enter the Pyramid, wasn't the vote almost unanimous?

People need to lose this comfort blanket of the SJFA if they want that to happen, they do nothing for the game and their all-or-nothing approach to this is holding the game back.

 

furthermore in an integrated system you dont really need the sjfa as the EOS etc dont need a middle man between them & the SFA so the regions would do just fine. However I don't forsee west clubs breaking away as a block or even the sjfa getting in at tier 6 so both points are hypothetical.

 

[Burnie_man]

19 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

 

furthermore in an integrated system you dont really need the sjfa as the EOS etc dont need a middle man between them & the SFA so the regions would do just fine. However I don't forsee west clubs breaking away as a block or even the sjfa getting in at tier 6 so both points are hypothetical.

If it’s true that impasse has been reached regarding change for next season, the question arises of how do clubs deal with the broken promise from TJ/SJFA of tier 6 and how that affects their view of future promises of entry, how much longer do they give it.  There is a very real possibility west clubs are, at best, 18 months away from access to SFA Licencing and the Pyramid, and at least 2.5 years away from the first west club entering the Lowland League.

Meanwhile in the EoS clubs strengthen, get Licenced and move up the Pyramid, whilst the Lowland League ponder a second division which would push the West further down the pecking order. 

I appreciate that there are different levels of enthusiasm for this in the first place amongst Junior clubs, despite the vote at AGM, but there has to be clubs in the west harbouring ambitions that are fed up waiting, like Clydebank.

[glensmad]

52 minutes ago, santheman said:

Dream on Burnie.

There is no great  appetite outside a few of the top clubs to go it alone out with the SJFA.

Even if the WRJFA called an EGM (which they won't ) I doubt if the majority of clubs would vote for it.

I'm not so sure. If the WRJFA called an EGM to vote on all clubs moving as one into the pyramid, then I can see no reason why they would reject it, as absolutely nothing would change for almost every club. They would still be playing the same teams at the same level with the same finances. The only difference would be the top team in the top league would have the opportunity to get promoted to the Lowland League. That doesn't affect 62 of the current 63 West Region teams.

[Arthurlie1981]

Any EoS objection is only likely to the relate to the formation of a second ERJFA pyramid feeder league at tiers 6 or 7 IMO. The LL may also reject this as it would provide duplicate feeder leagues in the east, which would unbalance the pyramid.  

I understand that but the clubs voted to move on mass not to create a new league. Personally I don’t mind the idea of a new league but as I said above it will take some of the top clubs to show the way forward.

At the end of the day the impasse in the East is what will stop this from happening. There can be as many arguments for a separate league in the west that will meet the needs but many clubs aren’t going to risk their future to move and are going to wait and see what happens imo.

[Arthurlie1981]

The WRJFA have it in their power to join the Pyramid next season, there are no objections to that happening within the PWG, they dont need the SJFA.

Speak directly to PWG
Call an EGM
Adopt new rules to mirror the EoS
Resign SJFA membership
Move into Pyramid as en-masse

From next season the only change (apart from rules which are minor) would be Junior Cup replaced by South Challenge Cup. All other cups can be retained. Leagues remain unchanged. Promotion and relegation unchanged. Clubs can enter Licencing process if they choose.

Unlikely to happen given the influence of the SJFA in the west, but the option is there if clubs want it. The situation in the east doesn't stop this, or a version of it, from happening.

I’m not sure the west region can do that on behalf of the clubs. I think the clubs would have to resign from the SJFA. The changes being promoted are minor and really insignificant but having been in meetings with clubs (especially Ayrshire clubs) in the not to distant past and the appetite to start a new league is not there.

[Burnie_man]

19 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

At the end of the day the impasse in the East is what will stop this from happening.

 

 

 

 

I think what is stopping this from happening is the SJFA’s apparent refusal to recognise that a different solution is required in the east than in the west.  My impression is the EoS would be more than willing to talk about different solutions.

No plan on how SJFA integration is going to work has been presented at the PWG, so the EoS, LL etc don’t have anything to agree or disagree with.  What exactly the current impasse is I don’t know, it may boil down to alignment of rules and regulations. Maybe until that hurdle is overcome, there’s no point talking structures. Who knows.

Either way, the West Region have it in their power at an EGM to decide on their own future as a league. It doesn’t need SJFA approval or agreement in the east.

[Sancho Panza]

36 minutes ago, glensmad said:

I'm not so sure. If the WRJFA called an EGM to vote on all clubs moving as one into the pyramid, then I can see no reason why they would reject it, as absolutely nothing would change for almost every club. They would still be playing the same teams at the same level with the same finances. The only difference would be the top team in the top league would have the opportunity to get promoted to the Lowland League. That doesn't affect 62 of the current 63 West Region teams.

well put, however the major challange for the rest of the west region is to get the league fixtures finished early enough (April sometime)for the winners to take part in the play offs, very much weather dependant and may need some rejigging of cup competitions again also.

[Ginaro]

3 minutes ago, Sancho Panza said:

well put, however the major challange for the rest of the west region is to get the league fixtures finished early enough (April sometime)for the winners to take part in the play offs, very much weather dependant and may need some rejigging of cup competitions again also.

This season the deadline for the EOS/SOS to have a champion decided is 4th May, a week before the play-offs. Talbot could just about manage it if they won every league game, despite having two fixtures after that and two more still to be scheduled.

However no one in the west has a licence, so they wouldn't be taking part in any play-off in 19/20. To get a licence you of course need to be in the pyramid, and also have floodlights. Auchinleck are apparently considering getting them, and going by the league tables, next season the Premiership will have five teams with lights. That could allow some midweek games to ease congestion.

In future there might not need to be a play-off as the LL could allow automatic east and west promotion. But that's not going to happen until the west is in the pyramid and more clubs are licensed. It's all a bit chicken and egg...

[santheman]

1 hour ago, glensmad said:

I'm not so sure. If the WRJFA called an EGM to vote on all clubs moving as one into the pyramid, then I can see no reason why they would reject it, as absolutely nothing would change for almost every club. They would still be playing the same teams at the same level with the same finances. The only difference would be the top team in the top league would have the opportunity to get promoted to the Lowland League. That doesn't affect 62 of the current 63 West Region teams.

There you go Peter, now's your chance to go down in the annals of Junior history by starting the ball rolling.

edit to add  The thing I hear most at games is if nothings going to change then why go to the trouble in the first place??

Edited January 30, 2019 by santheman

[FairWeatherFan]

Didn't the West Region basically create 'a new league' last year by virtue of scraping districts and I think a cup or two.

So all they seem to be staying for is the Junior Cup against weaker regions and NOT wanting to be in the pyramid.