Junior football, what is the future?

[santheman]

I've actually lost track of what the pros and cons of becoming part of the pyramid are and I think that applies to a lot of Junior fans as well.

Certainly loads of club officials and fans I  know and  spoken to dont have it  anywhere near the top of their list of priorities.

 

[glensmad]

13 minutes ago, santheman said:

I've actually lost track of what the pros and cons of becoming part of the pyramid are and I think that applies to a lot of Junior fans as well.

Certainly loads of club officials and fans I  know and  spoken to dont have it  anywhere near the top of their list of priorities.

 

There are no cons as far as I can see.

[Kilbowie Benches]

42 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Its amazing how the EOS/SOS/HL/LL clubs manage this without paying someone £x,000 at Hampden.

As I understand it the SFA have asked the SJFA to do it as they don t have enough staff.

[Arthurlie1981]

 You’re right there’s blame on all sides as the Pyramid should have been sorted better from the beginning but to say the Junior clubs were not wanted is simply untrue, I remember at the time the great Junior conspiracy was the whole thing was a ploy to get Spartans in the league. Where are Spartans now?
 
The Juniors were offered to join at the beginning and due to the poor short notice setup correctly decided against it as the risk for them was far greater. After it was formed and working there were still 4 places and the Lowland league were open for applications how many Juniors applied and were refused?
 
TJ was pitching project fear of £150K toilets and Tuesdays to Elgin and then Juniors should join as one at be tier 5 and a separate feeder (sounds familiar to the current pitch) it took Kelty to see through the BS and break ranks to change the SJFA thinking and the East floodgate opened thanks to Dalkeith and Blackburn, notice the EoS accepted all applicants.
 
TJ is still pitching the same all in under the SJFA but now it’s tier 6, if it turns out to be BS and EoS do have a veto who’ll break ranks first in the West? You can blame the EoS for the initial short notice setup but they’ve been open to applications and have accepted several teams including yours. What’s holding everything up now is this SJFA all in and still SJFA nonsense, if you join the pyramid you’re a senior club. the WRJFA members who want in need to form a WoS league (note the anti juniors EoS have offered to help with it) and the Tayside teams need to accept they’re Highland League area.
 

Most clubs officials I know didn’t buy into the cost etc. They looked into themselves and we debunked that 150k nonsense (some of which was something to do with costs that Annan occurred when they joined the SFL but were taken out of context)

As for joining when the 4 vacancies opened I was involved with the club at that time we certainly were all for joining the pyramid but for west clubs to join the LL it was a step to far. Costs for travelling at that time would cripple us; while also losing local derbies would of put the club under a huge financial constraint.

I have always believed that all parties have to share the blame for the way it’s been handled. Junior clubs and officials were so dismissive of it (I remember receiving a phone call and getting a telling off from a senior junior official after giving an positive endorsement of the pyramid to the bbc!!), the EoS at the time were only looking after their own interests and should never have been allowed to run both organisations, and for me the biggest culprit was Regan who only wanted the pyramid for a box ticking exercise and rushed it through without proper time for discussions to take place.

If what I hear is correct then there will be no change for next season in the East or the West and more discussions to be had.

[Burnie_man]

55 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

If what I hear is correct then there will be no change for next season in the East or the West and more discussions to be had.

 

 

West of Scotland League?

[Wee Smiler]

3 hours ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

As I understand it the SFA have asked the SJFA to do it as they don t have enough staff.

what??? the sfa want this but wont provide support? cannae be true.

[Guest]

Glensmad you have hit the nail on the head and it's the frustrating thing in all this, the sjfa committee is in place to carry out the will of their members, in order to do this (the clubs voted to enter the pyramid in essence anyway) they should be sharing the pros and cons of entry, providing clubs the proper information linked with ground and licence requirements for tier 5 and tier 6,but for some reason this has not been provided..... I'll let everyone make their own minds up why of course. 

For me though this creates and maintains the confusion and scepticism regarding any potential move into the Senior pyramid for those who are genuinely trying to run their clubs in the interest of the clubs players, fans and management..... Meaning they are unable to make truly informed decisions.... 

I fear this will only delay decisions and make the process a whole lot harder and self serving than it has to be. 

[Arthurlie1981]

West of Scotland League?

Heard that’s very unlikely too.

[Arthurlie1981]

West of Scotland League?

 

Heard that’s very unlikely too.

 

Edited to add: this is due to the short timescales in setting it up I believe not because to clubs are willing to take part. This is just gleamed from people I know in junior football. It’s still likely to happen in the future I think but due to the stand off in the East it’s having a knock on effect to the whole thing.

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Heard that’s very unlikely too.

 

Edited to add: this is due to the short timescales in setting it up I believe not because to clubs are willing to take part. This is just gleamed from people I know in junior football. It’s still likely to happen in the future I think but due to the stand off in the East it’s having a knock on effect to the whole thing.

The Lowland League was set-up in 6 weeks.  We're only in late January, a WoSFL could replicate the rules and regs of the EoSFL and get going quite quickly, the stand-off in the east would have no bearing on this. There is plenty of time to put it together if there was a will to do it. As is stands,  Clydebank are off to the EoSFL anyway.

Of course, Lowland League 2 could also be a possibility but that may be slower progress.

[Arthurlie1981]

The Lowland League was set-up in 6 weeks.  We're only in late January, a WoSFL could replicate the rules and regs of the EoSFL and get going quite quickly, the stand-off in the east would have no bearing on this. There is plenty of time to put it together if there was a will to do it. As is stands,  Clydebank are off to the EoSFL anyway.
Of course, Lowland League 2 could also be a possibility but that may be slower progress.

True but it needs someone to lead it and no club has put its head above the parapet to do so. I think many clubs think the move will happen under the SJFA but until that door is closed by either the PWG or SFA then we are at a stalemate.

I do think time is now for an independent arbitrator to come in because as far as I am concerned the 2 sides are entrenched in their positions with no room for movement.

Oh and for what it’s worth imo the SFA could sort all this out by saying to either the SJFA or EoSL& LL this is how it happening and if you don’t like it you will get no referees!!

[Burnie_man]

18 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

True but it needs someone to lead it and no club has put its head above the parapet to do so. I think many clubs think the move will happen under the SJFA but until that door is closed by either the PWG or SFA then we are at a stalemate.

I do think time is now for an independent arbitrator to come in because as far as I am concerned the 2 sides are entrenched in their positions with no room for movement.

Oh and for what it’s worth imo the SFA could sort all this out by saying to either the SJFA or EoSL& LL this is how it happening and if you don’t like it you will get no referees!!
 

The SFA aren't going to force anything or bring in an arbitrator.  Any idea what the issue is with the west, rules and regs?

There was certainly talk last year of a WoSFL being set-up should Junior entry to the Pyramid next season fail, clubs who want in are faced with an 18 month delay (at least) if they dont.

[Arthurlie1981]

The SFA aren't going to force anything or bring in an arbitrator.  Any idea what the issue is with the west, rules and regs?
There was certainly talk last year of a WoSFL being set-up should Junior entry to the Pyramid next season fail, clubs who want in are faced with an 18 month delay (at least) if they dont.

Majority of west clubs are interested in moving but the vast majority only want to move if it’s on mass with the other clubs. I think it would need some really big clubs (Talbot, Pollok etc) to state they were interested in moving for clubs to start moving just now. Some clubs are risk adverse and rightly so because if it doesn’t work out they are putting their existence under threat.

I had discussion with other clubs last season with people seeming interested but not willing to organise it.

The best way forward is everyone in the West moving but we need to find a common agreement. If the SFA want this to happen they need to make it happen by finding an agreement because if not we are going to keep going round and round on this.

The SFA are custodians of the game in Scotland not the SJFA, LL or EoS and it’s time they acted like it. They created this mess with the establishment of the LL and exasperated with the misguided or misleading (depending on your point of view) email last year so they have to sort it!

[santheman]

There is a general apathy in the West towards all of it.

Most people I’ve spoken to in the last few months have the outlook of “if it happens it happens, if it doesn’t then I’m not all that bothered “.

Whether that’s because of the length of time it has dragged on I don’t know.

[Che Dail]

8 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Majority of west clubs are interested in moving but the vast majority only want to move if it’s on mass with the other clubs. I think it would need some really big clubs (Talbot, Pollok etc) to state they were interested in moving for clubs to start moving just now. Some clubs are risk adverse and rightly so because if it doesn’t work out they are putting their existence under threat.

I had discussion with other clubs last season with people seeming interested but not willing to organise it.

The best way forward is everyone in the West moving but we need to find a common agreement. If the SFA want this to happen they need to make it happen by finding an agreement because if not we are going to keep going round and round on this.

The SFA are custodians of the game in Scotland not the SJFA, LL or EoS and it’s time they acted like it. They created this mess with the establishment of the LL and exasperated with the misguided or misleading (depending on your point of view) email last year so they have to sort it!

 

Pyramid entry was supposedly a 'done deal' but now it looks like the SFA are stepping back and letting others get on with it, which is fair enough. 

Is there anything definitive, in writing, anywhere, which confirms that progress has been made and that pyramid entry can be delivered by SJFA for next season?

It really doesn't need a majority of clubs to make a WoS league happen. 

It just requires another 9 to step up to the plate with Clydebank and get the thing done.

It looks like this is not going to get sorted by others, the clubs must do it for themselves.

The EoS assoc would no doubt extend their offer from last season and assist with rules / constitution and any questions that might crop up - it's all boiler-plate stuff substituting the word 'East' with 'West'. 

It needs 10 clubs with a common purpose and commitment and 4 competent people in the whole of the West of Scotland to take up the office bearer positions.

Copy the website using exactly the same format as EoS with a contact email address at the top and an application form to fill out.

SOMEBODY PLEASE DO IT.

Or we'll all be here in another years time, still fannying about and wondering what is going on behind the scenes.

 

[Burnie_man]

28 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

Majority of west clubs are interested in moving but the vast majority only want to move if it’s on mass with the other clubs. I think it would need some really big clubs (Talbot, Pollok etc) to state they were interested in moving for clubs to start moving just now. Some clubs are risk adverse and rightly so because if it doesn’t work out they are putting their existence under threat.

I had discussion with other clubs last season with people seeming interested but not willing to organise it.

The best way forward is everyone in the West moving but we need to find a common agreement. If the SFA want this to happen they need to make it happen by finding an agreement because if not we are going to keep going round and round on this.

The SFA are custodians of the game in Scotland not the SJFA, LL or EoS and it’s time they acted like it. They created this mess with the establishment of the LL and exasperated with the misguided or misleading (depending on your point of view) email last year so they have to sort it!

I agree re the haste on the forming of the LL, said it on here plenty enough. At the time it merely suited a handful of EoS clubs and nobody else.

The second mistake is by the SFA entertaining the idea that the SJFA could enter the Pyramid.  They saw what happened in the east, they should have been facilitating similar by setting up a WoS and asking for applicants.  The SJFA should have been left to administer those clubs who didn't want to move.  If that had been the focus of the PWG we would already have it in place to kick-off in August and clubs applying.

Nobody is really any further forward.  There is now the opportunity for the Lowland League to step in and form a LL2 West and LL2 East and take hold of the situation at tier 6, breaking the impasse if no club(s) in the west are prepared to take the lead.

 

[Kilbowie Benches]

40 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Pyramid entry was supposedly a 'done deal' but now it looks like the SFA are stepping back and letting others get on with it, which is fair enough. 

Is there anything definitive, in writing, anywhere, which confirms that progress has been made and that pyramid entry can be delivered by SJFA for next season?

It really doesn't need a majority of clubs to make a WoS league happen. 

It just requires another 9 to step up to the plate with Clydebank and get the thing done.

It looks like this is not going to get sorted by others, the clubs must do it for themselves.

The EoS assoc would no doubt extend their offer from last season and assist with rules / constitution and any questions that might crop up - it's all boiler-plate stuff substituting the word 'East' with 'West'. 

It needs 10 clubs with a common purpose and commitment and 4 competent people in the whole of the West of Scotland to take up the office bearer positions.

Copy the website using exactly the same format as EoS with a contact email address at the top and an application form to fill out.

SOMEBODY PLEASE DO IT.

Or we'll all be here in another years time, still fannying about and wondering what is going on behind the scenes.

 

A club that is part of another association can’t be seen to be creating a rival league in the same area.The EoSL don’t like it so why would anyone else?

[Che Dail]

2 hours ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

A club that is part of another association can’t be seen to be creating a rival league in the same area.The EoSL don’t like it so why would anyone else?

But it wouldn't be a rival league - this one would be in the pyramid and affiliated to the SFA.

Same rules as EoS with no strings attached.

Clubs can either take it or leave it.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Che Dail

[Kilbowie Benches]

Just now, Che Dail said:

But it wouldn't be a rival league - this one would be in the pyramid amd affiliated to the SFA.

Same rules as EoS with no strings attached.

Clubs can either take it or leave it.

But all the clubs are members of another association and if it didn’t work out where would they go? Back to the Juniors to the bottom of the pile?

[FairWeatherFan]

The same hesitancy of a breakaway WoS last year, seems true this year. Just look at Clydebank, quite happy to join the EoS but haven't been publicly leading the charge for a WoS even though it would be a better situation for them.

Lowland League 2 seems the easiest way to break this apparent deadlock. With the Lowland League likely rewriting significant portions of their rulebook this summer it's good timing. And more importantly it'd be easier for them to get an agreement with the SFA, EoS and SoS over such a change, than what we're seeing with the SJFA negotiations.