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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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Any continuation of a junior cup needs to be done to make it work for the 200ish participants(presuming entry for all clubs below tier 5 and above amateur) and not just 4 clubs that make the semi finals.

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21 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Junior Cup:

  • Minimum ticket price get's set £5/£2 upto the Round of 16. Quarter finals on £7/£3.50

That sounds like illegal price fixing.

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4 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Any continuation of a junior cup needs to be done to make it work for the 200ish participants(presuming entry for all clubs below tier 5 and above amateur) and not just 4 clubs that make the semi finals.

That's why it will be interesting to see what changes with the SCC. When they were just adding East teams it probably didn't impact the Competition Committee's finances that much as a lot of games would fall within the 50 mile no payment scale.

There are now going to be more games that will require travel expenses and more clubs looking for a split of the gate.

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1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's why it will be interesting to see what changes with the SCC. When they were just adding East teams it probably didn't impact the Competition Committee's finances that much as a lot of games would fall within the 50 mile no payment scale.

There are now going to be more games that will require travel expenses and more clubs looking for a split of the gate.

Split gate is inevitable IMO.   How does the SCC fund travel expenses,  Do they take a % of gates?

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Just now, parsforlife said:

Split gate is inevitable IMO.   How does the SCC fund travel expenses,  Do they take a % of gates?

They get the money from the final and presumably sponsorships. For the first couple of years they got £20k a year from the SFA. Then after that they went regional until the Quarter Finals which would of limited travel expenses being paid. It only went to an open draw again in 2016-17 with the expansion of East teams only, which again would have minimised the travel payments.

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Just throwing this in, because the West has now gone Senior, couldn't you  just name the Conference's and below as ' Juniors '  with only the top divisions being called Senior ?  / Or rename the amateurs status ? Only trying to find a way to keep the Junior Cup going somehow, as it seems to retain the interest among fans.

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The term 'Junior' for adult football takes some explaining and the new developments are perhaps a good time to see it gone.

Just throwing this in, because the West has now gone Senior, couldn't you  just name the Conference's and below as ' Juniors '  with only the top divisions being called Senior ?  / Or rename the amateurs status ? Only trying to find a way to keep the Junior Cup going somehow, as it seems to retain the interest among fans.
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Just throwing this in, because the West has now gone Senior, couldn't you  just name the Conference's and below as ' Juniors '  with only the top divisions being called Senior ?  / Or rename the amateurs status ? Only trying to find a way to keep the Junior Cup going somehow, as it seems to retain the interest among fans.
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3 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Just throwing this in, because the West has now gone Senior, couldn't you  just name the Conference's and below as ' Juniors '  with only the top divisions being called Senior ?  / Or rename the amateurs status ? Only trying to find a way to keep the Junior Cup going somehow, as it seems to retain the interest among fans.

I'd give them a nice uncontroversial name, like Intermediates...

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33 minutes ago, sfha said:

The English sorted this out half a century ago when they abolished the amateur grade and made all footballers, well footballers. 

Indeed. As did athletics, tennis, cricket etc. decades ago.

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Surely the writing was on the wall when Junior clubs were given entry to the Scottish Cup, and soon after amateurs. I reckon the SFA had a 20 year plan and it is now falling into place...

 

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21 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The actual old trophy was retired not that long ago. What's used now is just a replica. 

What 3 cups are we talking about? Junior, South Challenge, and? 

The North of Scotland Cup too.

Another poster pointed out there’s been no interest from the HL for another all in Cup but surely this is the sort of cup that would market well.

Regionalise the first two or three rounds then all in even. 
 

Im only saying as binning a cup that has probably the third largest pulling power for fans in Scotland (yes I mean bigger than the challenge cup) seems silly to me because of some politics. A final of Kelty vs Brora for example at Inverness or Pitodrie would draw a good crowd. That excitement for that cup never left the Juniors.

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31 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

The North of Scotland Cup too.

Another poster pointed out there’s been no interest from the HL for another all in Cup but surely this is the sort of cup that would market well.

Regionalise the first two or three rounds then all in even. 
 

Im only saying as binning a cup that has probably the third largest pulling power for fans in Scotland (yes I mean bigger than the challenge cup) seems silly to me because of some politics. A final of Kelty vs Brora for example at Inverness or Pitodrie would draw a good crowd. That excitement for that cup never left the Juniors.

For this by North of Scotland you're meaning the equivalent of the South Challenge Cup which has been scrapped since 2009. The North version was 99% Highland League sides so didn't have the same inter-league aspect that the South Challenge did with EoS v. SoS. Once the SFA stopped funding it, it was pulled.

When people speak about regionalisation, i'm guessing they're going to have to be more inventive than just North/South. Since if you took it from the SPFL playoff boundary line there's more than double the number of teams South. That was a problem solved in the SCC by having the NE section play an extra round of games. Which I doubt clubs would be keen on for this.

When it comes to Kelty v. Brora i'm pretty sure a SPFL Playoff series would bring bigger crowds for those particular clubs, than a cup final at a neutral venue. At the moment the only people advocating for the binning of the Junior Cup are random posters on the internet that have nothing to do with the running of the leagues or competitions. The main issue with the standing of the Junior Cup was the last administration. Who decided to amend their rules only to allow WoSFL clubs. Which meant they lost the 10(?) or so WoSFL clubs that withdrew membership and the 8 East Region clubs that joined the EoSFL who were forced out of the SJFA with no choice. A situation is likely to repeat itself with another bunch of East Region clubs joining the EoSFL this year.

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Oh right I didn’t realise. Wiki seems to say Brora won it last season.

you are right about the playoff, but that’s two clubs. Bring in a cup with prestige like this and you could have really big crowds from the last 16 onwards imo.

I really don’t see a negative and can’t really understand why we’d keep a cup in the south to qualify for something we already qualify for through licensing. It’s in its very nature defunct.

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1 minute ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Oh right I didn’t realise. Wiki seems to say Brora won it last season.

That's a cup organised by the NoSFA and is basically a minor tournament for the Highland HL & NCL teams.

1 minute ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

I really don’t see a negative and can’t really understand why we’d keep a cup in the south to qualify for something we already qualify for through licensing. It’s in its very nature defunct.

The South Challenge Cup has never been a qualifying tournament. It was basically a replacement in the calendar for the Qualifying Cup (South) where only SFA members competed, with the South Challenge Cup being open to all teams in the SoSFL and EoSFL plus "Southern" SFA members in other leagues.

The only qualfying cup tournaments in the pyramid are the Alex Jack Cup (EoSFL) and Alba Cup (SoSFL) for non-licenced teams. The winner of each contest the South & East Cup Winners Shield.

5 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Oh and on that neutral venue point. We played Kelty in 2007 in front of 9,300 people. No playoff series will generate that level of support.

That was purely for Kelty v. Brora since Brora since both would struggle to have total population of 9,300 and Inverness or Pittodrie as a venue wouldn't attract the same level of casual support being outside the central belt.

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18 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Any continuation of a junior cup needs to be done to make it work for the 200ish participants(presuming entry for all clubs below tier 5 and above amateur) and not just 4 clubs that make the semi finals.

Why continue a dying cup when the senior clubs have prosperous competitions to play in?

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1 hour ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Oh and on that neutral venue point. We played Kelty in 2007 in front of 9,300 people. No playoff series will generate that level of support.

Good senior clubs like Linlithgow need to embrace the future or they'll be hamstrung by being beholden to the past. The Junior Cup is an irrelevance.

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4 hours ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

The North of Scotland Cup too.

Another poster pointed out there’s been no interest from the HL for another all in Cup but surely this is the sort of cup that would market well.

Regionalise the first two or three rounds then all in even. 
 

Im only saying as binning a cup that has probably the third largest pulling power for fans in Scotland (yes I mean bigger than the challenge cup) seems silly to me because of some politics. A final of Kelty vs Brora for example at Inverness or Pitodrie would draw a good crowd. That excitement for that cup never left the Juniors.

There's no real desire for it up here amongst the Highland League teams, as it really doesn't give any benefits to the majority of clubs that the Scottish Cup doesn't. Remember Highland League clubs have played in the big cup for many years: it is the all in national competition to them.

If you want an all in non-league cup like the FA Trophy down south, then you're going to have to convince someone to throw money at it: sponsorship, decent prizemoney. If clubs lose money playing in it, like many NRJFA clubs did in the Junior Cup, it'll never fly.

I don't know what the NRJFA or NCL club thoughts on the matter are, given they are likely to enter the Highland pyramid at Tier 6 soon.

Edited by Cyclizine
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