Junior football, what is the future?

[Marshmallo]

The border between Lowland/Highland should be moving South if anything. Perthshire in particular should probably be North.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, mcruic said:

I still think there's room for negotiation as to where Tayside clubs go - it should be up to them which part of the pyramid they wish to join.  I think if/when the West Lothian juniors join the EoS and the North Juniors join (nominally or otherwise) the HL pyramid, the Tayside clubs will have to make a decision on their future direction, as it's not possible to have an SJFA with only 17 clubs, all in Tayside.

There's also a lot of historical quirks that have been cemented with the pyramid (e.g. the fact that SoS and North Caley are essentially amateur leagues, but have 1 or 2 senior clubs in them).  Many SoS clubs are Tier 8 at best, but they're placed at Tier 6 beside the West Junior giants.  Having Auchinleck Talbot and Creetown at the same level of the pyramid just seems madness.

Hopefully it will all sort itself out in time, but I don't think putting leagues at artificially high levels helps things.

Which is something that was recognised in the very beginning.

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Having three or four feeder leagues into the LL would be cumbersome. It is proposed that consideration is given to creating one merged body across football beneath the LL by 2016

Following 2020-21 its the first time it can genuinely be discussed. As there will be the WoSFL, EoSFL, SoSFL with a number of SFA Licenced members all looking for greater promotion opportunities.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

The border between Lowland/Highland should be moving South if anything. Perthshire in particular should probably be North.

Quote

After the play offs any team relegated from the SFL who are north of the Tay will go to the SHFL, teams south of the Tay will go to the LL. This may need to be revised over time as the balance of teams in the SHFL and the LL is considered.

That seems to have been the original thought to keep the balance North / South at Tier 5.

[mcruic]

5 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

 West Lothian clubs dont want Tayside clubs anywhere near them.....,that's why they play in seperate north/south leagues because of travel costs.

Nor would it be a great incentive for bigger West Lothian junior teams,on seeing Dundee and Angus sides joining the EoS.

Angus in particular is NORTH !!!!

Brechin is but 10 miles from the Aberdeenshire border!!!

Spoke to some of the Whitburn committee at the weekend about the pyramid in the social club and they reiterated they do not want to travel to Tayside on a regular basis.

 

14 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

The border between Lowland/Highland should be moving South if anything. Perthshire in particular should probably be North.

Blairgowrie is closer to Falkirk than all teams in the North with the exception of Stonehaven.

[Marshmallo]

1 minute ago, mcruic said:

 

Blairgowrie is closer to Falkirk than all teams in the North with the exception of Stonehaven.

Stranraer is closer to Belfast than it is to Moscow - what's your point caller?

[mcruic]

11 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That seems to have been the original thought to keep the balance North / South at Tier 5.

But the team numbers can never truly be balanced if there is already an imbalance in terms of the number of teams in each catchment area below Tier 5.  At the moment, you have 17 teams officially in the HL pyramid vs 147 in the LL pyramid.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

1 minute ago, Marshmallo said:

Stranraer is closer to Belfast than it is to Moscow - what's your point caller?

Google says that Moscow is 68 miles away from Stranraer.

[mcruic]

3 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Stranraer is closer to Belfast than it is to Moscow - what's your point caller?

So Stranraer would be more suited to play in a UK league than a Russian one.  You've just made the point.  If the Perthshire and Dundee clubs are closer to the Central Belt than they are to most of Aberdeenshire, why should they play in a league with Aberdeenshire teams?

Edited July 23, 2020 by mcruic

[Whitburn Vale]

Maybe the Tayside sides should set up they're own "Mid Scotland League".

But ultimately below the Highland League.

Clinging on here to the "junior" boundaries when funny enough "juniors" down here dont want nowt to do with playing Dundee or Angus sides on a regular basis....

[Marshmallo]

9 minutes ago, mcruic said:

So Stranraer would be more suited to play in a UK league than a Russian one.  You've just made the point.  If the Perthshire and Dundee clubs are closer to the Central Belt than they are to most of Aberdeenshire, why should they play in a league with Aberdeenshire teams?

Dumfries to Carlisle

Dumfries to Inverness

 

Dover to Calais

Dover to Hartlepool

 

Please advise

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, mcruic said:

But the team numbers can never truly be balanced if there is already an imbalance in terms of the number of teams in each catchment area below Tier 5.  At the moment, you have 17 teams officially in the HL pyramid vs 147 in the LL pyramid.

They don't care about that. They care about tier 5 as its the link from the national leagues to "non-league".

Its no different than how the Conference down in England went from NPL, Southern League, and Isthmian League all feeding into it. Basically 1 North and 2 South Leagues and then created Conference North & South. Then made them fit into the structure.

[LongTimeLurker]

48 minutes ago, Zen Archer Esq. said:

Google says that Moscow is 68 miles away from Stranraer.

The wee village in Ayrshire strikes again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow,_East_Ayrshire

In a similar vein, I used to be able to confuse Canadians when working there by telling them how I was able to take a bus rather than a plane to California in Scotland.

Edited July 23, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Spyro]

1 hour ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Spoke to some of the Whitburn committee at the weekend about the pyramid in the social club and they reiterated they do not want to travel to Tayside on a regular basis.

Some seem to think Coldstream is the end of the Earth... 

[mcruic]

1 hour ago, Whitburn Vale said:

 West Lothian clubs dont want Tayside clubs anywhere near them.....,that's why they play in seperate north/south leagues because of travel costs.

Nor would it be a great incentive for bigger West Lothian junior teams,on seeing Dundee and Angus sides joining the EoS.

Angus in particular is NORTH !!!!

Brechin is but 10 miles from the Aberdeenshire border!!!

Spoke to some of the Whitburn committee at the weekend about the pyramid in the social club and they reiterated they do not want to travel to Tayside on a regular basis.

I can understand travel concerns, but in the old EOS Superleague days, there were only 4 or 5 Tayside teams in the league at a time.  So you've got 5 trips a season of between 50 and 80 miles, 1- 1.5 hours travelling max.  You already had a few trips of 40+ miles last year playing in the ERJFA with the Fife teams, so an extra 80-100 miles over the space of 3 or 4 games isn't going to break the bank.  With proper fixture scheduling, these matches would be on Saturdays, and would avoid the (single) midweek evening kick off in Forfar that everyone seems to keep bemoaning.  Forfar WE and Carnoustie are the only Angus sides most teams would have to worry about, as Arbroath Vics, Brechin Vics and Forfar Albion aren't showing many signs of being top teams in Tayside in the near future and would be plugging away in the Tayside division.

If the East Juniors all joined the EoS League tomorrow, the leagues would be regionalised at the bottom - so there would be a separate Lothian/Fife division and Tayside division, just as there is now.  Only the bigger teams would have to travel more, but they'd have an even spread of Lothian/Fife and Tayside teams in their league - it's not like it's going to be one West Lothian team in a league with 15 Tayside teams.  Also, the "outliers" (Arbroath Vics, Brechin Vics) are not likely to be playing at the top inter-regional level - they'll be in the Tayside league, as they are now. 

For example, if Whitburn joined, they'd be playing the same teams they are playing now, plus a few more from the Lothians and a couple from the Borders.  If Whitburn were promoted, their likely opponents would mostly be from Lothian and Fife.  There's probably only ever going to be a max of 4 or 5 Tayside teams at either Tier 6 or Tier 7.  So I think the travel concerns of West Lothian teams don't really amount to much.  If modest teams like Crossgates Primrose can join and travel to the Borders, I'm pretty sure teams with bigger support like Whitburn would soon be having success and wondering what all the fuss was about.

All in all, it would make very little difference to most of the remaining juniors in terms of travelling distance, but would make a huge difference in access to funding, development and licensing opportunities, better fixture scheduling, and a more professional setup.  Also, they could play in the regional Tier 8 for as long as they want and just refuse promotion - the same as what they are doing now.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by mcruic

[Spyro]

10 minutes ago, mcruic said:

I can understand travel concerns, but in the old EOS Superleague days, there were only 4 or 5 Tayside teams in the league at a time.  So you've got 5 trips a season of between 50 and 80 miles, 1- 1.5 hours travelling max.  You already had a few trips of 40+ miles last year playing in the ERJFA with the Fife teams, so an extra 80-100 miles over the space of 3 or 4 games isn't going to break the bank.  With proper fixture scheduling, these matches would be on Saturdays, and would avoid the (single) midweek evening kick off in Forfar that everyone seems to keep bemoaning.  Forfar WE and Carnoustie are the only Angus sides most teams would have to worry about, as Arbroath Vics, Brechin Vics and Forfar Albion aren't showing many signs of being top teams in Tayside in the near future and would be plugging away in the Tayside division.

If the East Juniors all joined the EoS League tomorrow, the leagues would be regionalised at the bottom - so there would be a separate Lothian/Fife division and Tayside division, just as there is now.  Only the bigger teams would have to travel more, but they'd have an even spread of Lothian/Fife and Tayside teams in their league - it's not like it's going to be one West Lothian team in a league with 15 Tayside teams.  Also, the "outliers" (Arbroath Vics, Brechin Vics) are not likely to be playing at the top inter-regional level - they'll be in the Tayside league, as they are now. 

For example, if Whitburn joined, they'd be playing the same teams they are playing now, plus a few more from the Lothians and a couple from the Borders.  If Whitburn were promoted, their likely opponents would mostly be from Lothian and Fife.  There's probably only ever going to be a max of 4 or 5 Tayside teams at either Tier 6 or Tier 7.  So I think the travel concerns of West Lothian teams don't really amount to much.  If modest teams like Crossgates Primrose can join and travel to the Borders, I'm pretty sure teams with bigger support like Whitburn would soon be having success and wondering what all the fuss was about.

All in all, it would make very little difference to most of the remaining juniors in terms of travelling distance, but would make a huge difference in access to funding, development and licensing opportunities, better fixture scheduling, and a more professional setup.  Also, they could play in the regional Tier 8 for as long as they want and just refuse promotion - the same as what they are doing now.

 

 

 

 

 

Don’t, it’s not worth worrying about it. They won’t listen to you.

It’s nothing to do with travelling, it is all about an ingrained hatred of the EoS League and loyalty to the Juniors...

Edited July 23, 2020 by Spyro

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, mcruic said:

So Stranraer would be more suited to play in a UK league than a Russian one.  You've just made the point.  If the Perthshire and Dundee clubs are closer to the Central Belt than they are to most of Aberdeenshire, why should they play in a league with Aberdeenshire teams?

Closer to one town you picked in the South than most of the North Region. You're not making a great case here.

[mcruic]

57 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

They don't care about that. They care about tier 5 as its the link from the national leagues to "non-league".

Its no different than how the Conference down in England went from NPL, Southern League, and Isthmian League all feeding into it. Basically 1 North and 2 South Leagues and then created Conference North & South. Then made them fit into the structure.

Also, in England it's a bit different, as the North covers the Top 2/3 of the country geographically, with the South being the bottom 1/3.

They had some problems with the system - it's now gone to 1 North, 2 Midlands (North and South) and 1 South, which gives a bit of fluidity to the middle, overlapping part.

So it actually now makes a (bit) more sense - 1 national non-league league, 2 regional below it, and 4 below that.

I suppose Scotland is kind of doing similar - only Tier 6 is shaping up to be a 6-league thing rather than 4 and there is no leeway for the middle part to join either the LL or HL, depending on balance of clubs.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

12 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Think 1:2:2 would probably be the better way to go, but the bottom line is that with sensible regionalisation Whitburn don't have to be going to Dundee and Angus on a regular basis in an EoS context. There's no indication that the Highland League actually want Tayside and they will need to sign off on any tier 6 feeder in pro/rel terms. Meanwhile, Luncarty got in despite being north of the Club 42 line. As things stand at the moment, the EoS is the only way into the pyramid for non-licensed Tayside junior clubs subject , of course, to the approval of the existing membership.

[mcruic]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Closer to one town you picked in the South than most of the North Region. You're not making a great case here.

Alright.  Blairgowrie is closer to the whole of Fife, Falkirk, Stirling, West Lothian, Midlothian and Edinburgh, and a lot of North Lanarkshire than it is to Aberdeen, which is where most of the North Junior clubs are concentrated around.

[mcruic]

14 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think 1:2:2 would probably be the better way to go, but the bottom line is that with sensible regionalisation Whitburn don't have to be going to Dundee and Angus on a regular basis in an EoS context. There's no indication that the Highland League actually want Tayside and they will need to sign off on any tier 6 feeder in pro/rel terms. Meanwhile, Luncarty got in despite being north of the Club 42 line. As things stand at the moment, the EoS is the only way into the pyramid for non-licensed Tayside junior clubs subject , of course, to the approval of the existing membership.

Yeah, I thought regionalisation at Tier 7 would be better too, but I went with what EoS is doing at the moment - which is no regionalisation.  Another problem is if we use Tayside as North, and the rest as South, below the top level, the 60 remaining teams would be divided 41-19 in favour of the South.  That could be balanced to 31-29 in favour of the North if Tayside + Fife was North and Lothian + Borders was South.  Then there would be even less travelling for the likes of Whitburn, as they'd only have to play Lothian teams, and would avoid having to travel to distant Fife...

Here's how a 1-2-2 structure would look. Whitburn playing mostly Lothian teams in first year, and if they got promoted, more of the same.  So only at Tier 6 might they encounter some trips to the other side of the world.

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by mcruic