Junior football, what is the future?

[parkcircus]

40 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Has he or would they got in without his involvement? Are you really suggesting clubs who are not from the WRJ will be held to a different set of standards. You do know its not the SPFL running the show here?

It’s the Lowland League running it.

No, I don’t think any previous junior club would have gotten knocked back, I was just clarifying a point

[Jerry Macguire]

Just now, parkcircus said:

It’s the Lowland League running it.

No, I don’t think any previous junior club would have gotten knocked back, I was just clarifying a point

So explain to me what exactly Gordon Ronney secured?

[glensmad]

So explain to me what exactly Gordon Ronney secured?

Nothing yet, other than an agreement with the other SJFA regions to let their clubs decide if the WoSFL teams can play in the Scottish Junior Cup. That has still to be ratified. The LL/EoSFL/SoSFL did not give that concession, as it was not in their remit.

[parkcircus]

1 minute ago, Jerry Macguire said:

So explain to me what exactly Gordon Ronney secured?

Prior to the application Gordon had agreed with the Lowland League that all junior clubs would be excepted.

At that point it wasn’t known how rigorous the entry criteria was or the maximum amount of teams would be.

It might have been the same, it might not have been, who knows.

At the beginning the LL were only looking for about 12 teams to get the league started.

You might not agree with his approach but at least he represented the clubs, something the SJFA failed to do in two years.

 

[Jerry Macguire]

2 minutes ago, parkcircus said:

Prior to the application Gordon had agreed with the Lowland League that all junior clubs would be excepted.

At that point it wasn’t known how rigorous the entry criteria was or the maximum amount of teams would be.

It might have been the same, it might not have been, who knows.

At the beginning the LL were only looking for about 12 teams to get the league started.

You might not agree with his approach but at least he represented the clubs, something the SJFA failed to do in two years.

 

I can tell you, you have been seriously misled. The LL never set a limit on numbers. There was no agreement to accept all junior clubs. The acceptance criteria is pretty well known as its the same criteria used by the EoSFL. As far representing the clubs is concerned. Do you really think the junior clubs who didn't want to join the new set up but were told they had no choice but to apply for WoSL as the WR wouldn't be providing an alternative feel represented?

[Ginaro]

3 hours ago, glensmad said:

"Probably 90 per cent of the clubs don’t meet the criteria"

I think you'll find that 95% of the clubs actually do already meet the criteria.

In his interview on the Down the Divisions podcast, I felt George Fraser didn't make it clear enough that a licence wasn't required to take part at tier 6, though he did talk about how clubs should be looking to improve all the time with a view to licensing - maybe some clubs have interpreted that wrongly.

1 hour ago, Wile E Coyote said:

No it didn't, that is my point. It got a result but it did not use the best way.

The best way would mean Conference  A got the no 1 seed, the number 6th seed etc.

Instead it got the 1st and 4th seeds

I am amazed you are actually arguing with me that they used the right method.

I think I understand what you're saying and it's a fair point when considering the WOS since it will have four (or five) conferences and not three like the EOS.

If you split 16 teams into four conferences using the sequential method, their average positions are A=7, B=8, C=9, D=10.

If you use the snake splitting method, their average positions are A=8.5, B=8.5, C=8.5, D=8.5.

Sequential split
A		B		C		D
Auchinleck Talbot	1	Kilwinning Rangers	2	Pollok	3	Glenafton Athletic	4
Irvine Meadow XI	5	Beith Juniors	6	Hurlford United	7	Kilbirnie Ladeside	8
Clydebank	9	Cumnock Juniors	10	Rossvale	11	Largs Thistle	12
Benburb	13	Troon	14	Rutherglen G.	15	Kirkintilloch RR	16
	7		8		9		10
Snake Split
A		B		C		D
Auchinleck Talbot	1	Kilwinning Rangers	2	Pollok	3	Glenafton Athletic	4
Kilbirnie Ladeside	8	Hurlford United	7	Beith Juniors	6	Irvine Meadow XI	5
Clydebank	9	Cumnock Juniors	10	Rossvale	11	Largs Thistle	12
Kirkintilloch RR	16	Rutherglen G.	15	Troon	14	Benburb	13
	8.5		8.5		8.5		8.5

[Lowland team]

1 hour ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Has he or would they got in without his involvement? Are you really suggesting clubs who are not from the WRJ will be held to a different set of standards. You do know its not the SPFL running the show here?

The junior rep.asked the lowland to take everyone in masse.but the lowland said no they must apply by application.thats what happened. 

[Wile E Coyote]

10 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

In his interview on the Down the Divisions podcast, I felt George Fraser didn't make it clear enough that a licence wasn't required to take part at tier 6, though he did talk about how clubs should be looking to improve all the time with a view to licensing - maybe some clubs have interpreted that wrongly.

I think I understand what you're saying and it's a fair point when considering the WOS since it will have four (or five) conferences and not three like the EOS.

If you split 16 teams into four conferences using the sequential method, their average positions are A=7, B=8, C=9, D=10.

If you use the snake splitting method, their average positions are A=8.5, B=8.5, C=8.5, D=8.5.

 

Sequential split
A		B		C		D
Auchinleck Talbot	1	Kilwinning Rangers	2	Pollok	3	Glenafton Athletic	4
Irvine Meadow XI	5	Beith Juniors	6	Hurlford United	7	Kilbirnie Ladeside	8
Clydebank	9	Cumnock Juniors	10	Rossvale	11	Largs Thistle	12
Benburb	13	Troon	14	Rutherglen G.	15	Kirkintilloch RR	16
	7		8		9		10
Snake Split
A		B		C		D
Auchinleck Talbot	1	Kilwinning Rangers	2	Pollok	3	Glenafton Athletic	4
Kilbirnie Ladeside	8	Hurlford United	7	Beith Juniors	6	Irvine Meadow XI	5
Clydebank	9	Cumnock Juniors	10	Rossvale	11	Largs Thistle	12
Kirkintilloch RR	16	Rutherglen G.	15	Troon	14	Benburb	13
	8.5		8.5		8.5		8.5

Thank you. That illustrates my point perfectly and I am absolutely amazed people argued against it. Look at Benburb in your example. Finish three places above  KRR  in your example but get absolutely shafted using the sequential method

[Guest]

There's a lot of misinformation out there. The LL did not set a limit on numbers. The entry criteria is clear, as its the same criteria used by the eosfl, as is ground the criteria. The sjfa cup isn't in the LL or eosfls remit to discuss, they just said that the wosfl competitions would come first in terms of game priority.

The wrsjfa have essentially forced clubs to apply who wouldn't have applied if their wrsjfa league continued.

So in essence the wrsjfa have made lots of concessions, forced clubs into the pyramid even, if they didn't want to be, and used a cup as a bargaining chip that wasn't theirs to bargain with in the first place.

Clubs statements and press interviews continue to display the amount of misunderstandings and display the complete lack of clubs doing their homework for themselves prior to applying or speaking to the press.

Also the LL chairman shouldn't have to say a licence isn't required for tier 6, clubs should know that if they have done their due diligence.

[Marten]

3 hours ago, Wile E Coyote said:

It clearly is an idiotic approach and I can't believe people are defending it but then in this thread it doesn't surprise me. Pyramid good anything else bad.

I am not spinning anything, it clearly is not the fairest way to do it. If you think differently you are clearly wrong, it is not a matter of opinion it is a matter of fact

I fully agree with you that the west should have the "snake" approach, that would be much fairer.

In the East it was slightly more complex due to "only" 24 out of 39 clubs coming from the East Juniors with 1 West Junior, 1 youth club, 1 LL relegated team and 12 existing EOS teams all having to be fit in alongside them. I think the problem was that they first seeded Hawick, followed by all existing EOS clubs, all East Juniors and the 2 others. That meant a very weak Tweedmouth was seeded alongside Bonnyrigg & Linlithgow. Imo, a better approach would have been to seed them with the "others" (Dunipace & Inverkeithing) and then using the snake method.

The west will be a bit easier with 63 juniors & 4 amateurs. The only question really is where Bonnyton will be seeded. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Marten

[Guest]

Thank you. That illustrates my point perfectly and I am absolutely amazed people argued against it. Look at Benburb in your example. Finish three places above  KRR  in your example but get absolutely shafted using the sequential method

People are allowed a different view from yours, you like your way, others don't. If the west choose your way thats fair enough.

It will work itself out in the wash regardless, barring 1 or 2 teams the top wosfl will most likely contain those that were in the super anyway.

That is when we ever get round to getting out of the house again. I may actually appreciate being able to go out after the lockdown [emoji16]

[Wile E Coyote]

2 minutes ago, Marten said:

I fully agree with you that the west should have the "snake" approach, that would be much fairer.

In the East it was slightly more complex due to "only" 24 out of 39 clubs coming from the East Juniors with 1 West Junior, 1 youth club, 1 LL relegated team and 12 existing EOS teams all having to be fit in alongside them. I think the problem was that they first seeded Hawick, followed by all existing EOS clubs, all East Juniors and the 2 others. That meant a very weak Tweedmouth was seeded alongside Bonnyrigg & Linlithgow. Imo, a better approach would have been to seed them with the "others" (Dunipace & Inverkeithing) and then using the snake method. With the seeding they actually used, they actually got more balanced conferences without using the snake method.

The west will be a bit easier with 63 juniors & 4 amateurs. The only question really is where Bonnyton will be seeded. 

To me that's a case of the seeding order of teams and the system both being wrong so in this case two wrongs did make a right

[glensmad]

There's a lot of misinformation out there. The LL did not set a limit on numbers. The entry criteria is clear, as its the same criteria used by the eosfl, as is ground the criteria. The sjfa cup isn't in the LL or eosfls remit to discuss, they just said that the wosfl competitions would come first in terms of game priority.

The wrsjfa have essentially forced clubs to apply who wouldn't have applied if their wrsjfa league continued.

So in essence the wrsjfa have made lots of concessions, forced clubs into the pyramid even, if they didn't want to be, and used a cup as a bargaining chip that wasn't theirs to bargain with in the first place.

Clubs statements and press interviews continue to display the amount of misunderstandings and display the complete lack of clubs doing their homework for themselves prior to applying or speaking to the press.

Also the LL chairman shouldn't have to say a licence isn't required for tier 6, clubs should know that if they have done their due diligence.

I couldn't agree more.

[Marten]

Just now, Wile E Coyote said:

To me that's a case of the seeding order of teams and the system both being wrong so in this case two wrongs did make a right

Yes, I agree with that. What happened then happened, hopefully they now use the "snake" system.

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, Wile E Coyote said:

Thank you. That illustrates my point perfectly and I am absolutely amazed people argued against it. Look at Benburb in your example. Finish three places above  KRR  in your example but get absolutely shafted using the sequential method

Benburb 10 games to play and and 13 pts ahead of KRR. KRR had 13 games to play. 

Nobody has finished above anyone. 

[Wile E Coyote]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Benburb 10 games to play and and 13 pts ahead of KRR. KRR had 13 games to play. 

Nobody has finished above anyone. 

Did you actually look at the example posted. Benburb were in 13th place, KRR were 16th. The team names don't matter, it showed the 13th team got shafted in the sequential  method compared to the 16th team

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Wile E Coyote said:

Did you actually look at the example posted. Benburb were in 13th place, KRR were 16th. The team names don't matter, it showed the 13th team got shafted in the sequential  method compared to the 16th team

On actual standings of games played Benburb sit 14th and KRR sit 16th. 

There is no team 13 or 16 except on paper. 

[Wile E Coyote]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

On actual standings of games played Benburb sit 14th and KRR sit 16th. 

There is no team 13 or 16 except on paper. 

What exactly are you arguing here. It is a fictional example to illustrate a point

[craigkillie]

This is the biggest problem in this whole thread - the guy Wile E Coyote has posted something which is objectively true and yet folk are disagreeing with him for tribalistic reasons.

Edited April 10, 2020 by craigkillie

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

This is the biggest problem in this whole thread - the guy Wile E Coyote has posted something which is objectively true and yet folk are disagreeing with him for tribalistic reasons.

Out of curiosity what exactly is tribalistic about it?