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Junior football, what is the future?

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12 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

image.png.e25e3a7539aa8cccfb41455c37858784.png

Apples and oranges. Challenge Cup always has lower crowds. Need to compare gates for challenge cup home games and it shows there is a marginal increase.

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Guest Moomintroll
It's not a national cup so it's not the cup I speak of.
I know it's been mentioned on here before but why not keep the Regional Challenge Cups & use the Junior Cup as a non SPFL Clubs SFA Trophy? Could Incentivise the winner by giving them a bye to the 4th Round of the Scottish Cup the year after.

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There was talk on a few forums about Rangers Colts applying for this new West set up but looks like that hasn't amounted to anything.

People have a very strong dislike to this idea which I understand  to an extent but it loses all credibility when we have Stirling Uni reserves playing in the Eofs, Edusport Reserves, Stranraer Reserves playing in the SofS with Annan Reserves playing last year. Not so long ago there was also Berwick Rangers and Spartans reserves playing in the EofS. 

It makes far more sense to include the reserve sides of Premiership clubs in these leagues than the ones listed above. 

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46 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

The point about the crowd sizes is demonstrably untrue anyway, as shown by Celtic and Rangers B games barely cracking a couple of hundred. It's not an exaggeration to say that Bonnyrigg or Talbot, for example, would bring more financial benefit by way of crowd sizes than any of the B teams.

The idea of incorporating the colt teams of the bigger SPFL sides into the wider pyramid structure is a bad idea that just refuses to go away. Living in the Glasgow area, I know lots of Rangers and Celtic diehard fans who would never countenance going to a reserve/colt game....merely following the first team is enough of a drain on their finances as things stand.

Selling it to smaller clubs as a financial benefit is a red herring too - as someone already said the real small fry will see a lot of any potential profit eroded by the increased policing and stewarding required as the local OF bams will inevitably come out of the woodwork and pretend it's their big team on display, while fans of the medium size sides will see it as an insult to be playing against a second string and will actively stay away.

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2 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:
34 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:
It's not a national cup so it's not the cup I speak of.

I know it's been mentioned on here before but why not keep the Regional Challenge Cups & use the Junior Cup as a non SPFL Clubs SFA Trophy? Could Incentivise the winner by giving them a bye to the 4th Round of the Scottish Cup the year after.

The name of the cup, and who runs it, doesn't really bother me but I think a fully national non-league cup with a day out at Hampden at the end of it would be a great boost to tier 5 and below. I think by allowing clubs to play in the Junior Cup and senior leagues the SJFA are trying to push the Junior cup into that position.

If the history and prestige of that cup mean as much as those who love it says it does it would attract better sponsors and crowds and be the natural fit for it rather than creating a new trophy. That's for the clubs to decide and if it suits them to do so I imagine they would go for it.

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9 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Apples and oranges. Challenge Cup always has lower crowds. Need to compare gates for challenge cup home games and it shows there is a marginal increase.

image.thumb.png.540655e5bb200a08b0cbb706673582f1.png

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Positive "newsbite" from Lesmahagow in Daily Record

Lesmahagow boss Robert Irving says West of Scotland League can revive juniors

Quote

Irving says he's all for change, and the new set-up is something a bit different.

Lesmahagow boss Robert Irving welcomes the West of Scotland League, and hopes it breathes new life into the junior game.

Irving relishes change and says the game in Lanarkshire had become stale, but warned league bosses not to send them on too many trips outside of the county.

The ’Gow gaffer, who doesn’t expect his side to play again this season, said: “It’s the only way forward. It has got a bit stale, so this might revive it and bring it back to life.

“I don’t know how they will work out the divisions, but we’ll wait and see.

“This could inject new life into it, and it’s something a bit different.

“The Lowland League came out of nowhere and they took a lot of players away from our clubs and I think the West of Scotland League will be a bit like that, but hopefully we will still be able to attract some of the top players.

“I like change, I’m all for anything changing, and it was a long while ago that the leagues were last changed. I like it to be shaken up.

“Our league was quite local, we were in with teams like Larkhall Thistle, Lanark United, Carluke Rovers and Bellshill Athletic, so there were 16 derbies right away.

“With the greatest respect, if you’re heading down to Maybole, Irvine, Largs or somewhere like that then the supporters are not going to travel.

“We need to see how it’s going to be set up but I’m all for the new league.”

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/lesmahagow-boss-robert-irving-says-21788529

 

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Gordon Smith is such a fucking balloon he is surely the ideal man to take the rump of WRJFA remainers forward into the 1950s.

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3 minutes ago, edinabear said:

There was talk on a few forums about Rangers Colts applying for this new West set up but looks like that hasn't amounted to anything.

People have a very strong dislike to this idea which I understand  to an extent but it loses all credibility when we have Stirling Uni reserves playing in the Eofs, Edusport Reserves, Stranraer Reserves playing in the SofS with Annan Reserves playing last year. Not so long ago there was also Berwick Rangers and Spartans reserves playing in the EofS. 

It makes far more sense to include the reserve sides of Premiership clubs in these leagues than the ones listed above. 

The WoSFL isn't accepting reserves. Certainly not in the first season.

The Lowland League bars reserve teams in its rules. Lowland Team (?) who seems in the know with some of the things going on suggested a motion is going forward that would prevent a reserve side having a team in a league directly below. That would mean Caledonian Braves SoS would have to fold.

Berwick Rangers and Hibs reserves were all accepted into the EoSFL before the pyramid was established. Spartans and Stirling University never resigned from the EoSFL when they joined the Lowland League that's how they kept teams in there once the pyramid was a thing. Selkirk would later try and get a reserve team into the EoSFL but were rejected.

So its really only the SoSFL that has been taking in reserve sides of late. If they hadn't they would be a 13 team league.

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3 hours ago, Hossy87 said:

Go on, it'll be something different for your isolation diet. 

The way things are going, we'll all be eating cloth shortly anyway.....

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20 hours ago, Dev said:

This is what Hurlford United, Lanark United and Annbank  United have shown in the past. Strong clues?

http://www.hurlfordunited.com/

An agreement has been reached that WRFA junior clubs can join the pyramid & retain SJFA membership to continue to play in the Scottish Junior Cup. 

Etc.

Mar 25, 2020

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/Record_Sport/status/1242822244335845376

 

Lanark United FC Retweeted

 

 

Daily Record Sport

 

@Record_Sport

 

 

 

SPFL pyramid masterplan agreed as Juniors get set to move en-masse to new West League |

 

@Doonhamer79

 

https://bit.ly/2UiMiMc

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/AnnbankUnited·

 

Retweeted:

@TheJuniorPuffer  14 Feb

 

Would you prefer your club to move into pyramid with or without SJFA?

 

With SJFA

 

43.5%

 

Without SJFA

 

42.9%

 

Just not at all

 

13.6%

 

588 votes · Final results

'@Doonhamer79' ??

Imposter !!

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That article is superb.

i particularly like the idea that league 2 players are going to earn moves playing well against colts.

’ Who’s that big number 4? worth putting an offer in, he’s really used his physicality and 300 senior appearances to completely body the scrawny 16 year old forward we’re playing’

Anyway it’s not going to happen, it didn’t happen when smith had any Influence, it won’t happen now and it won’t happen in 9 months once he’s completely forgot about this and trots out a similar article .

On the junior cup, it’s admirable trying to keep it going, but I can’t see it doing any more than gradually dwindle away in the new structure. The early rounds are going to struggle and I can see a fair few withdrawals from smaller sides once it becomes clear midweek games will come in after 1st or 2nd attempts, possibly moved onto school Astro pitches.  Regionalisation might come in to try avoid this, but then it loses some of the romance.

For the bigger sides these early rounds will inevitably at times find themselves right before/after important league games, and whilst they’ll be happy to muddle through those early rounds, squad rotation will come in to some degree. Fans, managers and players will all have one eye on the league game.

Then as we get to the later rounds the games will still be played with importance, but the neutrals and 1 game a season types won’t be there as the head to head games between sides competing for league titles and the promotion play-offs as well as Scottish cup games vs league sides will be the games that attract them.

Then we get to the final, which clubs will not find acceptable to be played at such a late date.   So we have fans/players going through all the excitement/heartache of the end of the season and a week or so later look for them to go again.  The talk of 15000 at games in the 80s or 50k in the 50s will be replaced with talk of how the finals used to get 7/8k and be by far the biggest game of the season and in a decade you’ll get the same ‘ok granddad’ answer from those that never saw this as adults.

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29 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

image.thumb.png.540655e5bb200a08b0cbb706673582f1.png

Some REALLY boring maths coming up but, hey, if others find interest so be it


Discounting games that come after the 3rd round where the latter stages of a competition may skew attendances I done some digging. I only went for home crowds from part time clubs and excluded the Queen's Park v Celtic game as that was played away from Hampden for some reason. I'm also only making averages from games in the last four seasons as that's how long Colt teams have been in the cup.

2016 Cowden v Celtic got an attendance of 449. Cowden's only other home game in the cup in that time was a "derby" v East Fife with an attendances of 261 so the have a 72% increase in games v Old Firm Colts (but one game alone is a poor indicator of trends)

2017/18 Annan v Celtic. Two years in a row Annan got Celtic colts. Average attendance was 272. Their only other home cup game in that time was at attendance of 307. An 11% decrease.

2017 Dumbarton v Rangers got 389. Dumbarton had five other home games in that time. One v Morton, who usually bring a decent crowd to Dumbarton with the close proximity, one v St. Mirren colts and one v Connah's Quay. All three might have different effects on crowds (good or bad) but overall their game v Rangers saw a 17% decrease on the average.

2019 Berwick v Rangers got 303. Berwick's average attendance was down 27% on other home games at this stage in the competition but this includes ties v Spartans and QotS which could also skew attendances. QotS game was over double what they got v Rangers

2019 Stranraer v Rangers got 524. Stranraer's home games had a home tie v Partick, higher crowd, and a home tie v Partick colts, lower crowd, plus one v Spartans. Overall the Rangers crowd was a 46% increase on the usual crowds.

The main thing I found was that, once we take away outliers, such as bigger travelling crowds from Championship teams or crap crowds from other colt teams there was very little difference and this was a huge waste of time.


 

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That article is superb.
i particularly like the idea that league 2 players are going to earn moves playing well against colts.

Seeing as Sevco didn't even notice Andy Robertson when he was up against them in League Two I think we can safely file that alleged benefit in the bin.

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37 minutes ago, edinabear said:

There was talk on a few forums about Rangers Colts applying for this new West set up but looks like that hasn't amounted to anything.

People have a very strong dislike to this idea which I understand  to an extent but it loses all credibility when we have Stirling Uni reserves playing in the Eofs, Edusport Reserves, Stranraer Reserves playing in the SofS with Annan Reserves playing last year. Not so long ago there was also Berwick Rangers and Spartans reserves playing in the EofS. 

It makes far more sense to include the reserve sides of Premiership clubs in these leagues than the ones listed above. 

The reserve teams you mention however all sit at tier 6 or below. This proposal in the article is about reserve teams going in at tier 2/3/4. Very different. Teams in spfl 1 and 2 in particular have been protected for to long, and this is nothing more than another old boy scheme to protect these lower clubs from the threat of dozens of ambitious, in many cases larger, clubs from coming up to challenge them through the pyramid. 

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7 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

That article is superb.

i particularly like the idea that league 2 players are going to earn moves playing well against colts.

’ Who’s that big number 4? worth putting an offer in, he’s really used his physicality and 300 senior appearances to completely body the scrawny 16 year old forward we’re playing’

Indeed. So badly written it presumes that Morton and QoS are part-time. Maybe they think  the only full-time sides outwith the Premier are Dundee and Dundee Utd..

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1 minute ago, morley said:

The reserve teams you mention however all sit at tier 6 or below. This proposal in the article is about reserve teams going in at tier 2/3/4. Very different. Teams in spfl 1 and 2 in particular have been protected for to long, and this is nothing more than another old boy scheme to protect these lower clubs from the threat of dozens of ambitious, in many cases larger, clubs from coming up to challenge them through the pyramid. 

Nothing to do with protecting lower SPFL clubs. They don't want reserve sides either. It's all about some of the twisted sisters trying to impose their views because they they (the people as well as their opinions) think they are important.

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13 minutes ago, RedEd said:

Nothing to do with protecting lower SPFL clubs. They don't want reserve sides either. It's all about some of the twisted sisters trying to impose their views because they they (the people as well as their opinions) think they are important.

It would not only be the Old Firm who would be involved in this. Hibs have already ran a colt side in the Pyramid. Caley Thistle Colts applied for Highland League next year.  Motherwell, Livingston, Hearts and Aberdeen have all expressed interest previously 

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1 hour ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

It's not a national cup so it's not the cup I speak of.

Asim You need to be honest, I think you know where he is coming from.

Unsure, what's the total playing next year in the Scottish Challenge Cup ?
What's the total playing in the Scottish junior cup next year, Forgetting the WOS teams ?
We know there are 63 junior teams left in the West region, and most are joining the new WOS and a tiny few will not participate in the junior cup next season. I believe, as the years move on I can see the amount of teams falling each year who want to participate in the junior cup anymore.

I can see eventually a full non league Scottish cup with the teams from the highland league and hopefully an Aberdeen / Tayside tier league joining in making it a full non league Scottish cup and can also see the challenge cup continue for the lowland league teams and below.

Personally for me, the Scottish Junior cup was brilliant and loved playing in during my time but times change and I see it as insignificant in the bigger picture of things. Lot of teams moving who are junior through and through will eventually start to change their attitude when more people, younger, become involved in their committees and see what is best for the club, not using history of a junior grade/cup  to stifle/slow progression of their club.

To the clubs who left the juniors in the East a couple of years ago, do they still see themselves as junior teams or senior teams and do they have interest in the Scottish junior cup ?.  I believe most, I could be wrong though, but I believe most think of themselves now as a senior team and have no interest in the Scottish Junior Cup and if that's true then there a reason why they think that way, junior grade is dwindling.

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It's not a national cup so it's not the cup I speak of.
You want a national cup, at senior level, that's the scottish cup. That is why all the clubs wanted licensed and moved to the pyramid in the first place and why most of the west sides are moving, they want into the big scottish.

If you want to expand a non league cup and include highland league and tayside teams then go for it, i dont mind that, but all of these clubs who didn't want a wet tuesday in elgin are then looking at just that.

Also, you keep speaking about the prestige of the junior cup, not everyone thinks it has that prestige. It doesnt draw major interest or sponsorship like it used to. The junior game is and has been a closed shop for years now with little to no real interest in it from outside it's own bubble. That got worse as soon as the east was essentially removed.

By all means have a new cup but it'll take some agreement between associations and I'm not sure every club would be interested in it, given their regional based cups offer the exact same with less travel.

I think an all in south challenge cup (wosfl, eosfl, sosfl and LL) would be good, it would have the same number, if not more participants, than the old junior cup used to have.

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