Junior football, what is the future?

[Doonhamer1969]

On 07/04/2020 at 15:44, Cameron Wilson said:

I think the SOS deserves a lot of respect for supporting the pyramid since its foundation. In all honestly it probably doesn't matter what tier it's at as I can't see any SOS team ever bettering an EOS or WOS league champion in the future.

But has anyone considered that perhaps the number of clubs and / or population under each region should come into consideration when weighting promotion play off places? If the new WOS has 66 or so clubs battling for one promotion place to the LL, it doesn't really seem to follow that the SOS only has 15 teams going for one place.

For balance , it would also have to be considered that 17 HL teams now have the same promotion chance as 146 Lowland area teams......

EDIT 148 Lowland teams .

Edited April 9, 2020 by Doonhamer1969

[Stag Nation]

8 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

For balance , it would also have to be considered that 17 HL teams now have the same promotion chance as 146 Lowland area teams......

Rather more, as they’re all licensed.

[Sunrise]

On 31/03/2020 at 12:57, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Unleash Campbeltown!

(If it hasn't became entirely clear yet I am mostly interested in the pyramid for the potential away days in the Scottish Cup)

Sorry for shuffling in but I just need to reshare this piece I wrote in the Largs v Kilsyth programme in 2018 (yes, I want them in too).

"A BRIEF HISTORY
OF FOOTBALL IN KINTYRE

REGULAR READERS will recall me writing about Dunoon’s junior heritage, when I visited Cowal after getting my first car. 
Last summer I travelled to Oban and Campbeltown, the latter which left me with a burst tyre and an overnight stay! Both towns have a vein of footballing success spanning decades; the former’s team, Oban Saints, have reached the Scottish Amateur Cup semi-finals two years running and are in next week’s quarter-final, but I feel, for this programme, Campbeltown and Kintyre have a story worth telling…
The Kintyre peninsula’s footballers have perhaps benefited from their geographic isolation. The top club of the early 20th century, Academicals, withdrew from the local juniors in 1913 after being barred from the Junior Cup for travelling reasons – to instead host Rangers, Morton, Hamilton Accies and other big names in friendlies!
Academicals midfielder Neil McBain would later play for Manchester United, making three appearances for Scotland and being the oldest player ever to feature in the Football League, aged 51 years and 120 days for New Brighton against Hartlepools in 1947.
Kintyre sides such as Campbeltown United, Academicals and Argyll Colliery dominated the Mid-Argyll league of the 20s. United hosted Tranent – previous winners – in the Junior Cup fifth round of 1935, rejecting a request to play closer to the central belt. Their record run ended there, but Tranent beat Petershill in the final that May.
Kintyre retained a junior presence after the Second World War. In those days, Kintyre teams were seeded to face each other in the early sounds of the cup, before facing the rest of Scotland as late as the fourth round. Contrary to popular belief, Ardrossan Winton Rovers did not fly to face Drumlemble on November 5th 1960.
Four seasons earlier however, Aberdeen Mugiemoss did charter a flight to Kintyre’s Machrihanish Airport for their visit to United on 5th January 1957, in the Scottish Junior Cup fourth round. After a score draw, the replay to Aberdeen resembled a scene from Robin Jenkins’ classic football novel The Thistle and The Grail: with few fans travelling north, a phone link was set up between Linksfield Stadium and United’s local Kinloch Bar – which happened to be closed between 2-5pm. The fervent fans instead loitered around the streets with a runner relaying updates – which were also chalked into the road surface! 
United battled for a 3-2 win to reach the fifth round, the first time for a local side since 1938. Loanhead Mayflower ended the run, in front of a record 3,500 at Kintyre Park. 
But local football was on its last legs, with the local league declining from six members in 1953 to four in 1957. Kintyre’s last hurrah was the Junior Cup first round of 1961/62, as Campbeltown Hearts lost 0-11 at home to Dundee St Josephs, while Drumlemble were beaten 1-5 at Linlithgow. That October 14th, the local league closed down.
The Kintyre Amateur Football League amateur league continued as once-junior side Campbeltown Pupils reformed, winning the league and cup in their first season back. The industry that defined the area changed: Argyll Colliery closed in 1967, though a NATO fuel depot and the opening of RAF Machrihanish reshaped the local economy. The base itself produced a side to challenge Pupils’ dominance, though before long Pupils first transferred to the Mid-Argyll League in 1971, and then the Scottish Amateur Football League in 1977/78 – winning the Seventh Division undefeated with 122 goals scored in their first attempt. It would be the beginning of a golden era for Kintyre football.
At their peak during the late 70s and early 80s, Pupils had 400 season ticket holders – as an amateur side! – and attracted crowds as big as 700 to Kintyre Park. Their record Scottish Amateur Cup run came in 1980, where they beat Fenwick Thistle and Arden Villa on the way to the quarter-finals before losing at eventual winners Newarthill Hearts, while local rivals Carradale and Tarbert – not to mention Oban Saints – also competed in Scotland’s most prestigious amateur league.
1200 fans came to Kintyre Park in August 1983 to witness Pupils lose 1-3 to a Celtic XI featuring David Moyes, Peter Grant, Owen Archdeacon and Bobby Lennox. That year, Pupils were joined in the SAFL by Campbeltown Boys. Boys’ greatest achievement was winning the Premier Division Two in 1996, before Boys and Pupils merged during 2010/11.
In 1988, Kevin Gilchrist became the first local player to be capped for Scotland’s amateurs since pre-WWI. Three seasons later, Pupils were inaugural members of the SAFL Premier, admitted due to their Kintyre Park facilities; they would later be joined at the top table by Argyll foes Oban Saints. Pupils won the SAFL’s top tier in 2000: the triumphant side opened that season with a friendly against Kenny Shiels’ Coleraine, drawing 3-3 and prompting the Irish side to comment “Pupils have several very good players who would do well in Irish senior football”.
Despite local success down the years, like many amateurs Pupils now battle to keep young men interested in football. Just a few weeks ago, they returned home from East Kilbride’s Claremont after a 0-5 defeat, having signed five names on the day: their Twitter bemoaned uncommitted players. Where once there were ten Argyle teams in the SAFL (and twelve leagues), there are now six sides and just THREE leagues, though Carradale ply their trade in the Greater Glasgow League. The Kintyre league ceased in 1998.
But young players can give the peninsula hope. Pupils’ 2005s currently sit top of the Dunbartonshire YDL with three games left. Perhaps with the growing pyramid system, an ambitious young Kintyre side could compete at an even higher level – and give us new trips, preferably burst tyres not included!

This article was written thanks to the following: “Scottish Junior Cup 1960-1968 and 1950-1960”, both by Stewart Davidson, "Kit and Caboodle: A History of Football in Campbeltown” by Alex McKinven, and the National Library of Scotland’s archives of the Campbeltown Courier and Ardrossan & Saltcoats Herald.

[Marshmallo]

48 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

For balance , it would also have to be considered that 17 HL teams now have the same promotion chance as 146 Lowland area teams......

Agreed. Makes it even more daft that there is talk of moving the boundary line North.

[Robert James]

8 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Looks at the SFA Quality Mark scheme and guesses Giffnock SC and Strathaven Dynamos.

So in trying to guess the 2 extra Amateur applicant, those mentioned on here as possibilities, are :

Oban Saints

Strathclyde University

Giffnock SC

Strathaven Dynamos

Or, can we rule out  recent SFA Amateur Cup Winners like : :

Colville Park

Harestanes

Hurlford Thistle

Shortlees

As I have no knowledge of these clubs, or their grounds, I have no idea, and can't even speculate. 

Interesting none the less.

 

 

[Doonhamer1969]

On 07/04/2020 at 22:15, Marten said:

Is this guy related to JuniorFitbaSC?

Blood brothers .

[Doonhamer1969]

On 07/04/2020 at 22:41, LongTimeLurker said:

So there will probably be 129 nonleague senior clubs south of the Tay bridge boundary next season plus Luncarty in feeder leagues to the LL compared to 15 junior clubs.

148.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Doonhamer1969

[Doonhamer1969]

12 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

This is where you might see some competing voices in the membership. Some might prefer 16-16-16-18, others the thought of regionalisation at the bottom, few will be thinking about a new set of applicants that may try for 2021.

I imagine it will be resolved relatively early so that everyone knows what they are playing for 16-16-16-18 or 16-16-regionalisation. To avoid the issue that the EoSFL had this year.

I'd go regional at Tier 8,otherwise  it's a hell of a drop from 6 to 9 in one go , and there would be potentially very fine lines between teams dropping down a couple of tiers .

[Doonhamer1969]

12 hours ago, Robert James said:

Highland League could see promotion and relegation

by Will Clark  : 8th April 2020

(Extract from article in the John O'Groats Journal & Caithness Courier today)

Promotion to and relegation from the Highland League could be implemented in time for next season.

Positive talks have taken place between the HFL, the North Caledonian FA and the Scottish Junior FA North Region, to create a tier six division for the 2020/21 campaign.

If plans are agreed, teams from the NCL and the SJN Football Super League, could be promoted to the Highland League, replacing relegated sides.

League Secretary Rod Houston is confident the plans can be in place in time for the start of next season.

"That is the ambition, and for the the North Caledonian League, I am confident that can happen between these divisions. The junior no league might need a bit more time, but this hiatus may give us time to get everything worked out." 

The above article follows in the wake of 2 articles in the Inverness Courier, last week, about the NCL wanting to join the pyramid, and (separately) four new clubs having applied for NCL membership.

Changed days .......

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/1744053/we-cant-offer-spots-in-the-highland-league-says-secretary-rod-houston/

Highland League Secretary  Rod Houston (said ) “Part of that process was for representatives of the Highland League to meet with representatives of the North Region Junior FA to consider the possibility. That meeting took place in Huntly on November 18, last year and in the course of a cordial discussion, the NRJFA officials made it crystal clear that there was no appetite amongst junior clubs to become Tier 6 in the north, as indeed was their right so to do.”

[Doonhamer1969]

11 hours ago, Dev said:

OK! Let's get the speculation  going!

? Two from West Lothian. Just a stab in the dark.

Maybe Oban Saints, Strathclyde University, Third Lanark.

Who else has been guessed at?

Maybe another Youth club like Bonnyton/Rossvale/Glencairn ?

Maybe South of Scotland clubs?

Maybe Reserves e.g. Caledonian Braves, OF, etc

Whoever it turns out to be it will be interesting to find out in due course.

The other thing is maybe these unexpected applicants cannot be accepted e.g. if they fail to match the criteria.

Real Dukla Torpedo Ecclefechan are rumoured to have applied .....

[Ray Patterson]

Apparently it's not Strathaven nor Oban Saints, unfortunately.

Giffnock could be one, also Third Lanark possibly? Playing at Toryglen?

 

[Cameron Wilson]

2 hours ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

For balance , it would also have to be considered that 17 HL teams now have the same promotion chance as 146 Lowland area teams......

Indeed that's the point I'm making yes. Makes the issue of geographical integrity important now. Some teams may try to choose which league to be relegated into based in how easy they think it will be to go back up again.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Cameron Wilson

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, Sunrise said:

Sorry for shuffling in but I just need to reshare this piece I wrote in the Largs v Kilsyth programme in 2018 (yes, I want them in too).

"A BRIEF HISTORY
OF FOOTBALL IN KINTYRE

REGULAR READERS will recall me writing about Dunoon’s junior heritage, when I visited Cowal after getting my first car. 
Last summer I travelled to Oban and Campbeltown, the latter which left me with a burst tyre and an overnight stay! Both towns have a vein of footballing success spanning decades; the former’s team, Oban Saints, have reached the Scottish Amateur Cup semi-finals two years running and are in next week’s quarter-final, but I feel, for this programme, Campbeltown and Kintyre have a story worth telling…
The Kintyre peninsula’s footballers have perhaps benefited from their geographic isolation. The top club of the early 20th century, Academicals, withdrew from the local juniors in 1913 after being barred from the Junior Cup for travelling reasons – to instead host Rangers, Morton, Hamilton Accies and other big names in friendlies!
Academicals midfielder Neil McBain would later play for Manchester United, making three appearances for Scotland and being the oldest player ever to feature in the Football League, aged 51 years and 120 days for New Brighton against Hartlepools in 1947.
Kintyre sides such as Campbeltown United, Academicals and Argyll Colliery dominated the Mid-Argyll league of the 20s. United hosted Tranent – previous winners – in the Junior Cup fifth round of 1935, rejecting a request to play closer to the central belt. Their record run ended there, but Tranent beat Petershill in the final that May.
Kintyre retained a junior presence after the Second World War. In those days, Kintyre teams were seeded to face each other in the early sounds of the cup, before facing the rest of Scotland as late as the fourth round. Contrary to popular belief, Ardrossan Winton Rovers did not fly to face Drumlemble on November 5th 1960.
Four seasons earlier however, Aberdeen Mugiemoss did charter a flight to Kintyre’s Machrihanish Airport for their visit to United on 5th January 1957, in the Scottish Junior Cup fourth round. After a score draw, the replay to Aberdeen resembled a scene from Robin Jenkins’ classic football novel The Thistle and The Grail: with few fans travelling north, a phone link was set up between Linksfield Stadium and United’s local Kinloch Bar – which happened to be closed between 2-5pm. The fervent fans instead loitered around the streets with a runner relaying updates – which were also chalked into the road surface! 
United battled for a 3-2 win to reach the fifth round, the first time for a local side since 1938. Loanhead Mayflower ended the run, in front of a record 3,500 at Kintyre Park. 
But local football was on its last legs, with the local league declining from six members in 1953 to four in 1957. Kintyre’s last hurrah was the Junior Cup first round of 1961/62, as Campbeltown Hearts lost 0-11 at home to Dundee St Josephs, while Drumlemble were beaten 1-5 at Linlithgow. That October 14th, the local league closed down.
The Kintyre Amateur Football League amateur league continued as once-junior side Campbeltown Pupils reformed, winning the league and cup in their first season back. The industry that defined the area changed: Argyll Colliery closed in 1967, though a NATO fuel depot and the opening of RAF Machrihanish reshaped the local economy. The base itself produced a side to challenge Pupils’ dominance, though before long Pupils first transferred to the Mid-Argyll League in 1971, and then the Scottish Amateur Football League in 1977/78 – winning the Seventh Division undefeated with 122 goals scored in their first attempt. It would be the beginning of a golden era for Kintyre football.
At their peak during the late 70s and early 80s, Pupils had 400 season ticket holders – as an amateur side! – and attracted crowds as big as 700 to Kintyre Park. Their record Scottish Amateur Cup run came in 1980, where they beat Fenwick Thistle and Arden Villa on the way to the quarter-finals before losing at eventual winners Newarthill Hearts, while local rivals Carradale and Tarbert – not to mention Oban Saints – also competed in Scotland’s most prestigious amateur league.
1200 fans came to Kintyre Park in August 1983 to witness Pupils lose 1-3 to a Celtic XI featuring David Moyes, Peter Grant, Owen Archdeacon and Bobby Lennox. That year, Pupils were joined in the SAFL by Campbeltown Boys. Boys’ greatest achievement was winning the Premier Division Two in 1996, before Boys and Pupils merged during 2010/11.
In 1988, Kevin Gilchrist became the first local player to be capped for Scotland’s amateurs since pre-WWI. Three seasons later, Pupils were inaugural members of the SAFL Premier, admitted due to their Kintyre Park facilities; they would later be joined at the top table by Argyll foes Oban Saints. Pupils won the SAFL’s top tier in 2000: the triumphant side opened that season with a friendly against Kenny Shiels’ Coleraine, drawing 3-3 and prompting the Irish side to comment “Pupils have several very good players who would do well in Irish senior football”.
Despite local success down the years, like many amateurs Pupils now battle to keep young men interested in football. Just a few weeks ago, they returned home from East Kilbride’s Claremont after a 0-5 defeat, having signed five names on the day: their Twitter bemoaned uncommitted players. Where once there were ten Argyle teams in the SAFL (and twelve leagues), there are now six sides and just THREE leagues, though Carradale ply their trade in the Greater Glasgow League. The Kintyre league ceased in 1998.
But young players can give the peninsula hope. Pupils’ 2005s currently sit top of the Dunbartonshire YDL with three games left. Perhaps with the growing pyramid system, an ambitious young Kintyre side could compete at an even higher level – and give us new trips, preferably burst tyres not included!

This article was written thanks to the following: “Scottish Junior Cup 1960-1968 and 1950-1960”, both by Stewart Davidson, "Kit and Caboodle: A History of Football in Campbeltown” by Alex McKinven, and the National Library of Scotland’s archives of the Campbeltown Courier and Ardrossan & Saltcoats Herald.

 

An interesting insight into the past. Thank you.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, Robert James said:

So in trying to guess the 2 extra Amateur applicant, those mentioned on here as possibilities, are :

Oban Saints

Strathclyde University

Giffnock SC

Strathaven Dynamos

Or, can we rule out  recent SFA Amateur Cup Winners like : :

Colville Park

Harestanes

Hurlford Thistle

Shortlees

As I have no knowledge of these clubs, or their grounds, I have no idea, and can't even speculate. 

Interesting none the less.

 

 

Please no. I was planning on going to the Tynecastle v Shortlees Scottish Cup game a couple of years ago so I had a look at their Twitter. It was choked with full-on racism, and their Facebook was (and still is) skulls, guns, alcohol and terrible grammar. My experience of them at the game matched that pretty well. 

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Changed days .......

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/1744053/we-cant-offer-spots-in-the-highland-league-says-secretary-rod-houston/

Highland League Secretary  Rod Houston (said ) “Part of that process was for representatives of the Highland League to meet with representatives of the North Region Junior FA to consider the possibility. That meeting took place in Huntly on November 18, last year and in the course of a cordial discussion, the NRJFA officials made it crystal clear that there was no appetite amongst junior clubs to become Tier 6 in the north, as indeed was their right so to do.”

Yes, "changed days"............perhaps ?

Rod Houston's article a year or so ago, has certainly moved on in relation to the North Caley League, and the pyramid.

However, silence has once again descended over the NRJFA.  Perhaps there is  still "no appetite" for the pyramid from the north juniors. Does anyone have any up to date information about them ?

Meanwhile, the SFA should confirm the inclusion of the NCL into the pyramid, for 2020/21, as reported in the current press articles.   

[Sunrise]

Please no. I was planning on going to the Tynecastle v Shortlees Scottish Cup game a couple of years ago so I had a look at their Twitter. It was choked with full-on racism, and their Facebook was (and still is) skulls, guns, alcohol and terrible grammar. My experience of them at the game matched that pretty well. 

I brought that up on the Shortlees thread on the amateurs forum at the time and had a very racist comment about burkas aimed at me [emoji17]

(Not necessarily by a Shortlees fan I add)

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I brought that up on the Shortlees thread on the amateurs forum at the time and had a very racist comment about burkas aimed at me [emoji17]

(Not necessarily by a Shortlees fan I add)

Is that sort of content representative of the behaviour of the club or just the person tweeting their stuff? Appears just ever so slightly to the right of Genghis khan.

[RedEd]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Is that sort of content representative of the behaviour of the club or just the person tweeting their stuff? Appears just ever so slightly to the right of Genghis khan.

Probably someone who forgot which twitter account they were logged in to. Still highly embarassing, and that's putting it mildly. I would doubt Shortlees had applied, unless they are groundsharing, which is unlikely. Same with Hurlford Thistle , partly for that reason but also because the person bankrolling Hurlford United also has very close ties to Thistle.

Edited April 9, 2020 by RedEd

[Doonhamer1969]

17 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

That's right and also the reason Ferranti Thistle got in back in the day. Highland clubs have since shown how ridiculous it was that they had no teams in the SPFL before the early 90s.  

For me this is just more evidence that a pyramid should have been in place a long, long time ago. Back then, who would have thought there would be a Highland Derby in the Premiership one day? It could have come a lot sooner had a system been in place. Similarly now the HL has lost all its best teams, I think the north juniors and NCL can revitalise the HL via promotion and relegation, albeit time is needed to allow more teams to get licences and become eligible to go up.

Tbh the 'Scottish' League was a misnomer until 1994.

Didn't cover 40% of the country .

[Doonhamer1969]

17 hours ago, archieb said:

Where did I suggest rejecting any teams?

Answer = I didn't.

Do the maths - 16+16+17+17=66 and 16+18+16+16 =66 also!

I merely pointed out that by keeping the divisions with an odd number of clubs to a minimum you avoid having some being unnecessarily idle on matchdays (without increasing the number of matchdays as it happens!)

Of course, now we know there are 68 applicants there could be FOUR 17-club divisions thereby wasting even more Matchday opportunities!!

The EoS ran with 3x13 for a year and the North juniors have 2 9 team leagues. Don't see it as a big deal .