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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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33 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm guessing the two would have been Bonnyton and Caledonian Braves SoS. There's just one to consider now and a reserve side that can't be promoted is hardly a pressing concern.

Why are you ignoring junior club Kello Rovers, in your" geographical integrity" conclusion ? The club is in Dumfries & Galloway, which is SoSL territory.

The EoSL might break the "integrity" principle, if it agrees that Luncarty can join the EoSL. If so, it will help Kello's application to join the new WoSL.   However, if Luncarty are refused EoSL entry, than it would suggest that Kello won't be accepted into the WoS either, and would need to transfer to the SoSL. 

Also, it has now been confirmed that Bonnyton Thistle have applied to move the other way :  from SoSL to WoSL., which doesn't help Kello's case.. 

However, some exceptions might be appropriate, if common sense is applied............. but it would open up the "precedent" door for other clubs in the future.  

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22 minutes ago, AML67 said:

Why would they want to ‘slide in’ to Tier 7 , 8 , 9 or whatever that level may be next year ? Surely they’d have been better taking the gamble now  , hoping to draw a decent(ish) Conference then have potentially a reasonable season and finish maybe mid table avoiding the need to potentially drop several Tiers in the future ? Just a thought 

I never said anything about next year.

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The South of Scotland causes no harm where it sits at tier 6, it doesn't delay anyone from progressing and certainly won't impede things going forward.
 
It is at tier 6, it has equal place along with the wos and eos in voting rights and playoff places.
 
It is heartwarming to know though that because the wrsjfa clubs have now arrived that the pyramid is saved and we should all be put to our rightful place in the system folk helped get off the ground.
 
If the champion of either wos, sos or eos league isn't licensed they don't play in the playoff, so what harm is it to have the south in place where it is? If their champion is licensed, wins the playoff and earns promotion fair play to them, if they aren't licensed they don't play.....whats the harm?
 
Or is this more to do with a footballing class system whereby the bigger more powerful clubs think they should tell every other club where they should be playing? Here is a sobering thought though, if the wos champion isn't licensed by next season, they don't play in the playoff. Does that mean that they should move down a tier?
 
 
 

Just wanna say as one of the biggest supporters of the wosl movement i want the sosl to remain where it is.
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13 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Why are you ignoring junior club Kello Rovers, in your" geographical integrity" conclusion ? The club is in Dumfries & Galloway, which is SoSL territory.

The EoSL might break the "integrity" principle, if it agrees that Luncarty can join the EoSL. If so, it will help Kello's application to join the new WoSL.   However, if Luncarty are refused EoSL entry, than it would suggest that Kello won't be accepted into the WoS either, and would need to transfer to the SoSL. 

Also, it has now been confirmed that Bonnyton Thistle have applied to move the other way :  from SoSL to WoSL., which doesn't help Kello's case.. 

However, some exceptions might be appropriate, if common sense is applied............. but it would open up the "precedent" door for other clubs in the future.  

Because Dumfries & Galloway isn't SoSFL territory. That's like saying Perth & Kinross is EoSFL territory.

Now from below I can quite clearly divide up WoSFL v SoSFL. So there's no overlap.

image.png.3bb8e38ec27c6309b3f37ad02215465d.png

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Just wanna say as one of the biggest supporters of the wosl movement i want the sosl to remain where it is.
I know, but the south has only really became the big issue lately with multiple people now saying they should move down the way with no real reason provided.

They don't delay anything for anyone where they are. There is no need to move them.
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1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Because Dumfries & Galloway isn't SoSFL territory. That's like saying Perth & Kinross is EoSFL territory.

Now from below I can quite clearly divide up WoSFL v SoSFL. So there's no overlap.

image.png.3bb8e38ec27c6309b3f37ad02215465d.png

 

Am I missing something, or have you intentionally not put Kello Rovers on the map ?

Please add them.

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3 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

I know, but the south has only really became the big issue lately with multiple people now saying they should move down the way with no real reason provided.

No, its the exact same posters that have been saying the exact same things for over 2 years. Its not new. Its not an issue as its an internet forum and has the same credibility as the chat around West Lothian Juniors joining the EoSFL and Tayside joining up with the North Region.

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36 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

The South of Scotland causes no harm where it sits at tier 6, it doesn't delay anyone from progressing and certainly won't impede things going forward.

 

It is at tier 6, it has equal place along with the wos and eos in voting rights and playoff places.

 

It is heartwarming to know though that because the wrsjfa clubs have now arrived that the pyramid is saved and we should all be put to our rightful place in the system folk helped get off the ground.

 

If the champion of either wos, sos or eos league isn't licensed they don't play in the playoff, so what harm is it to have the south in place where it is? If their champion is licensed, wins the playoff and earns promotion fair play to them, if they aren't licensed they don't play.....whats the harm?

 

Or is this more to do with a footballing class system whereby the bigger more powerful clubs think they should tell every other club where they should be playing? Here is a sobering thought though, if the wos champion isn't licensed by next season, they don't play in the playoff. Does that mean that they should move down a tier?

 

 

 

I think you’ve effectively nailed this point and should it be held against the West’s winners next year if as you suggest they might not be Licensed in time for any play off ? They’ll clearly not be involved and should they then be demoted for their failure to meet the basic requirements of promotion after all the hullabaloo about the South’s potential Champions and the standard of their League 

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19 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Because Dumfries & Galloway isn't SoSFL territory. That's like saying Perth & Kinross is EoSFL territory.

Now from below I can quite clearly divide up WoSFL v SoSFL. So there's no overlap.

image.png.3bb8e38ec27c6309b3f37ad02215465d.png

The only obvious outlier in that map is Nithsdale Wanderers not being in the WoS.

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27 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I never said anything about next year.

 

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The advantage is in staying in the SoSFL. Tier 6 status in a settled league and will be written into the LL pyramid playoff rules. So they will have a say in future changes as well as current ones.

If they had joined the WoSFL this year they may have gone from Tier 6 to Tier 9 as some of the discussions has been over using the Conference set up this year to form every division. Which could turn out to be a vote that sees 16-16-16-18 rather than a regionalised bottom tier.

SoSFL can sit it out. Let the WoSFL sort itself out. Then slide in as a South Division or equal status to the WoSFL's bottom tier if that was deemed more preferable in future.

If they had joined WOSFL this year implies 👆🏻you were referring to next year but I might've picked you up wrong however my point still stands about the sliding in thing 

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25 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Because Dumfries & Galloway isn't SoSFL territory. That's like saying Perth & Kinross is EoSFL territory.

Now from below I can quite clearly divide up WoSFL v SoSFL. So there's no overlap.

image.png.3bb8e38ec27c6309b3f37ad02215465d.png

Is Lochar Thistle hidden under Heston 😉

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2 hours ago, edinabear said:

It's totally unsustainable for the SofS to remain at Tier 6. I would expect that to change in the next couple of years. How many in the SofS actually want to get promoted? 2-3 at most? 

How many SoS teams are licensed and how many WoS? As things stand at the moment* there's more chance of a SoS team being promoted to the LL than a WoS

 

*I appreaciate there are WoS teams actively pursuing a license but doesn't mean they will have everything in place by Feb.

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No, its the exact same posters that have been saying the exact same things for over 2 years. Its not new. Its not an issue as its an internet forum and has the same credibility as the chat around West Lothian Juniors joining the EoSFL and Tayside joining up with the North Region.
It has ramped up recent fair, from newer posters. The same old posters, whilst entitled to their opinions, cannot provide evidence to suggest the South should move, why they should move and what delay in proceedings for any other club they create by remaining at tier 6.

The answer is and always has been some generic 'they are rubbish' or 'they are a regional league'.

They don't cause anyone any harm, they don't delay a thing and deserve their spot right where they are. Just because an individual thinks their club is bigger and better doesn't mean associations have to move, if their club is bigger and better then they will defeat the sosfl side in the playoff.
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11 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

So you don't even know where Kello Rovers play?

Kirkconnel

Not everyone on here knows where it is, and your 'triangle' on the map, didn't highlight the club's Kello name to make its juxtaposition obvious.  It also has a Dumfries & Galloway postcode. 

However I am making a case for "common sense", if you re-read my post. The geographical integrity is an important consideration, but there should be a case for some variations, based on financial travel considerations, club history, community rivalry, accessibility, etc.  

 

 

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7 minutes ago, AML67 said:

 

If they had joined WOSFL this year implies 👆🏻you were referring to next year but I might've picked you up wrong however my point still stands about the sliding in thing 

Certainly not the way its meant. I know Scottish football moves to slow for that. You're going to get the 3 way playoff for one place in LL for a couple years most likely. Then a second promotion spot will hopefully open, which could be a time for further changes or the SoSFL remaining exactly where they are at Tier 6 now they have an increased chance of promotion.

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

For at least the first year you're probably going to have the one promotion spot in the EoS Championship playoff model of SoS v. EoS v. WoS in one home and one away fixture across Sat-Wed-Sat. Since that only means setting aside one week.

In time there should eventually be two automatic promotion spots and the format will probably stay the same. As only a week gets set aside for a playoff that might not be needed.

 

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6 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Not everyone on here knows where it is, and your 'triangle' on the map, didn't highlight the club's Kello name to make its juxtaposition obvious.  It also has a Dumfries & Galloway postcode.

Not my map, not my fault that not all the labels can appear at that scale. The point was to illustrate that there's no overlap, which is what it does.

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54 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Because Dumfries & Galloway isn't SoSFL territory. That's like saying Perth & Kinross is EoSFL territory.

Now from below I can quite clearly divide up WoSFL v SoSFL. So there's no overlap.

image.png.3bb8e38ec27c6309b3f37ad02215465d.png

South of Scotland League grew out of the Southern Counties League (which was initially formed by Dumfries & Galloway FA members.) Name was changed to SoS League after WW2 to allow for the reserves of Killie and Ayr as they were not Southern Counties FA members.  Why Kello never played Southern Counties League football I know not. Were they in a Junior league in Dumfriesshire (which did exist) prior to joining the South Ayrshire League in 1921?

Edit: answering myself, they were.

https://www.oocities.org/br1anmccoll/dumfriesjuniorfootball.htm

Interesting to see the league's make-up when Kello last committed to Junior football in their own region (and lasted 2 seasons before going north at end of 1920-21):

After the Great War, October 1919 saw the third attempt in the shape of the Dumfries & Galloway Junior FA. Eighteen clubs in total joined the new association, Annan Comrades, Annan YMCA, Burns Select, Castle Douglas Athletic Creetown Juniors, Dalbeattie Trades, Dalry, Gatehouse Comrades, Hoddam Rangers, Kello Rovers, Loreburn United, Maxwelltown United, Nithsdale, Rosefield, St Andrew’s, St Cuthbert’s Juniors, Solway Star Juniors and Tayleurians.

Edited by cmontheloknow
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3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Certainly not the way its meant. I know Scottish football moves to slow for that. You're going to get the 3 way playoff for one place in LL for a couple years most likely. Then a second promotion spot will hopefully open, which could be a time for further changes or the SoSFL remaining exactly where they are at Tier 6 now they have an increased chance of promotion.

 

I share you views about the SoSL. A 3-way (EoSL) 'round robin' system,  could be viable as/when 3 licensed clubs are champions in the 3 leagues concerned. 

However, it is entirely pointless to open up further structure problems at this stage, and BEFORE the agreed changes have been implemented. It's madness in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, morley said:

I think once the couple of current SoS members in the lowland league (Dalbeattie and if Gretna decide if they are an EOS or SoS side), get relegated from the LL, then it will be something that can be looked at. Thats assuming no other SoS side wins a promotion into the LL via the playoff in that time, although unlikely. It would just not be fair to expect a club to drop 2 tiers if relegated from the LL. 

They wouldn't drop 2 tiers, they would go into WoS top division.

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