Junior football, what is the future?

[archieb]

6 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It does make you wonder why there was such a change in 48 hours between a beligerant WRJFA meeting with healthy doses of fighting talk and anti-LL sentiment, and the PWG where there was no such thing and all of a sudden "common ground"

Because those with that attitude are a shrinking (albeit vocal) minority.

In time they will either see the light or f*** off somewhere else.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, archieb said:

I totally disagree.

The senior/junior divide in Scottish non-League football has been an utterly unnecessary barrier to progress for far too long. The main reasons for its longevity have been the isolationism of the ruling cadre in the SJFA and a significant proportion of its membership.

Just when compromises are within reach to sideline these influences and bring another huge part of the former separatist group within the pyramid fold is NOT the time to create a new or renewed exclusionism from the other side.

This proposal continues the divide but withing the Pyramid and for what benefit? to retain SJFA membership and the Junior Cup.

As I said above, if 30 (soon to be 38+) clubs in the east can leave all that behind, why can't those clubs in the west who want to join the Pyramid?

If clubs don't want to leave it behind then they remain Junior, it's entirely their choice. Just like it is in West Lothian with the majority of clubs wishing to stay Junior.

What happens if there are a dozen WRJFA clubs who don't want to move to the Pyramid like WL? are they f*cked with no league to play in?

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, archieb said:

Because those with that attitude are a shrinking (albeit vocal) minority.

In time they will either see the light or f*** off somewhere else.

Shouldn't the WRJFA remain for them though? it's as much their league as anyone elses and if they are anti-Pyramid and want to remain Junior, will they be kicked out?

As said above, Petrie's mantra has always been no club should be forced to moved to a league they don't want to. Is this just something else to be ignored (like the ERJFA and NRJFA).

Edited March 14, 2020 by Burnie_man

[Jack Burton]

No, what it is, is the west Junior clubs wanting their cake and eating it.
30 ex-Junior clubs have properly embraced the Pyramid in the east, left Junior football behind and have made a complete success of it with no outside influences as baggage, more clubs will follow that path next season.
Why can't west clubs accept that is how it is if you want to be part of the Pyramid? (or at least, should be?)
There is the option of remaining Junior and staying with the SJFA if some clubs don't fancy it.
That is how it should be,

Your recent posts suggest your more interested in crushing the SJFA than finding a solution.

Bringing the existing WJFA setup into the pyramid is the most sensible solution. Why have divide in the West with clubs in the pyramid and a separate WJFA league? We've already seen what a farce that has become in the East.

All the clubs come across but the new league is under LL rules. All clubs get to retain their SJFA membership and participate in the Scottish Junior Cup albeit the Cup can't take priority over the league any longer. If that is indeed what is proposed then makes perfect sense with comprise from both sides.

[archieb]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

Shouldn't the WRJFA remain for them though? it's as much their league as anyone elses and if they are anti-Pyramid and want to remain Junior, will they be kicked out?

As daid above, Petrie's mantra has always been no club should be forced to moved to a league they don't want to. Is this just something else to be ignored (like the ERJFA and NRJFA).

Why on earth do you want to retain this toxic division in Scottish football between 'senior' and 'junior'?

FFS let's make the priority getting everyone into the same pyramid system and the SJFA will gradually dwindle into insignificance like the old county FAs

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, archieb said:

Why on earth do you want to retain this toxic division in Scottish football between 'senior' and 'junior'?

FFS let's make the priority getting everyone into the same pyramid system and the SJFA will gradually dwindle into insignificance like the old county FAs

You haven't explained the rationale of bringing this division into the Pyramid, which will then be defended beligerantly by those who wont ever fully embrace their new environment.

[Marshmallo]

9 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

Your recent posts suggest your more interested in crushing the SJFA than finding a solution

Hear hear

[Burnie_man]

25 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

Your recent posts suggest your more interested in crushing the SJFA than finding a solution.

Bringing the existing WJFA setup into the pyramid is the most sensible solution. Why have divide in the West with clubs in the pyramid and a separate WJFA league? We've already seen what a farce that has become in the East.

All the clubs come across but the new league is under LL rules. All clubs get to retain their SJFA membership and participate in the Scottish Junior Cup albeit the Cup can't take priority over the league any longer. If that is indeed what is proposed then makes perfect sense with comprise from both sides.

It's about getting on with a truly independent league in the west as exists in the east without any of the old baggage. That is (or was) the LL proposal and it was a popular one.

Again, why can't clubs in the west accept that moving into the Pyramid means leaving behind the Junior Cup and the SJFA?  the clubs in the east are doing it and have never looked back, why do the west clubs want to retain the comfort blanket?

There is no farce in the east, clubs have a choice to stay Junior or move into the Pyramid, it is open to all. No club should be forced to play in a league they don't want to.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

14 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

All the clubs come across but the new league is under LL rules. All clubs get to retain their SJFA membership and participate in the Scottish Junior Cup albeit the Cup can't take priority over the league any longer. If that is indeed what is proposed then makes perfect sense with comprise from both sides.

But what about new clubs that come along the next Bonnyton Thistle, Rossvale, and Gartcairn. By porting over the 63 clubs into the WoSFL with SJFA membership the expectation is going to be on those new clubs to join the SJFA since everyone else is in it.

When all they should be doing is joining the WoSFL and hopefully working toward SFA membership as a goal.

Its a proposal solely to keep the SJFA a going concern.

[LongTimeLurker]

Looks like the LL have called the west region's bluff because the west region came up with a set of conditions that the LL could actually accomodate without any major problem. We'll find out on the 23rd if there will be any back pedalling by either party when faced with it becoming the new reality.

[Burnie_man]

14 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

So the new league is the West of Scotland Football League. Fines, Discipline etc will be in line with SFA rules. But Junior football isn't come to an end in the West of Scotland.

Does that mean all the talk we've heard about the specialness and uniqueness of the grade can be boiled down to a cup competition? Since that's all that would be left of Junior football in the West of Scotland by the sounds of it.

 

Just spotted this.  So is Ronney saying there WILL be Junior football in the West of Scotland?  will they keep banging the drum that they are Junior clubs because they get to retain SJFA membership? Toxic divide?

[BTID]

I really don’t get the clamber for the retention of the junior cup as a condition. It feels like some folk still have a nostalgic reality that this years final will actually be 1950 Meadow v Petershill 80k at Hampden. 
 

Whilst I totally understand the history behind the cup, having been involved in the build up to our final in 08 it was a brilliant occasion that really felt special. But it’s 2020. The north doesn’t compete. The east is decimated. It’s not been a proper national cup for years now. If you looked at the cups value in recent years it wouldn’t even be up for debate. 

If clubs have so much affinity to the cup I have no problem with that, stay junior if it means that much. A south challenge cup sounds quite exciting actually and personally I’d like an all in lower league national cup from LL/HL down in time. 

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, BTID said:

I really don’t get the clamber for the retention of the junior cup as a condition. It feels like some folk still have a nostalgic reality that this years final will actually be 1950 Meadow v Petershill 80k at Hampden...

18k for Bo'ness United vs Darvel was impressive enough to provide plenty of nostalgia for me. Remember the moment the trophy was lifted as vividly as if it were yesterday. 

How about acknowledging that although the junior cup is not what it used to be it still has enough prestige surrounding it to be worth assimilating into the new structure? The South Challenge Cup has a long way to go before it draws in the big game only fans in the way later round junior cup game can.

Once the SFA fully control Hampden and Queen's Park get shunted out to Lesser Hampden maybe the final can be moved back there and turned into more of a big occasion again as the showcase event for tiers 5-9.

[Guest]

Why have a divide in the pyramid with some clubs members of the sjfa and some not?

We can swing these arguments round to fit both ways to be honest.

There was clean break in the east, it worked. There doesnt appear to be one in the west, and the west is being led by a man who wants 'history' acknowledged and openly admitted wanting to 'save' the sjfa. ....its a trojan horse divide to continue to further the sjfa cause within the pyramid.

The new league should be free of divide, free of baggage, free of influence from anyone of the mindset outlined above. The current format I fear is doomed from the point of inception, because those who are seeking to hold onto junior status will do and say just about anything to stay in their bubble whilst appearing to buy into the pyramid.

If you buy into the pyramid then buy into it. Drop the junior cup, change rules, drop reinstatement and drop everything else....actually start something new, not a rehash of what you currently have.

[Guest]

18k for Bo'ness United vs Darvel was impressive enough to provide plenty of nostalgia for me. Remember the moment the trophy was lifted as vividly as if it were yesterday. 

How about acknowledging that although the junior cup is not what it used to be it still has enough prestige surrounding it to be worth assimilating into the new structure? The South Challenge Cup has a long way to go before it draws in the big game only fans in the way later round junior cup game can.

Once the SFA fully control Hampden and Queen's Park get shunted out to Lesser Hampden maybe the final can be moved back there and turned into more of a big occasion again as the showcase event for tiers 5-9.

Yes but not every fan, club or player feels for the junior cup the way others do.....it is a distraction for the season with the season being held up for a cup only a handful of teams will think they can win anyway.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

24 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Just spotted this.  So is Ronney saying there WILL be Junior football in the West of Scotland?  will they keep banging the drum that they are Junior clubs because they get to retain SJFA membership? Toxic divide?

SJFA membership and Junior Cup seems to = Junior Football. His whole approach has been about keeping the grade alive.

 

[Marshmallo]

42 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It's about getting on with a truly independent league in the west as exists in the east without any of the old baggage. That is (or was) the LL proposal and it was a popular one.

Again, why can't clubs in the west accept that moving into the Pyramid means leaving behind the Junior Cup and the SJFA?  the clubs in the east are doing it and have never looked back, why do the west clubs want to retain the comfort blanket?

The first paragraph is your opinion. IMO "it's about" getting clubs into a functioning pyramid which will allow teams to find their level.

Second paragraph - why shouldn't dual membership be a feature? What is stopping it? Junior clubs in the West want to access the pyramid and continue to play in the Junior Cup. If that's what is best for those clubs then I don't see any reason not to.

This should be all about what is best for the clubs to help them thrive. If that means picking and choosing bits of the set up in the EoS and sprinkling in bits from the Juniors then that's great.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

SJFA membership and Junior Cup seems to = Junior Football. His whole approach has been about keeping the grade alive.

 

Is it a grade once there are no fines, reinstatements and permits? All it is a national cup competition at that point 

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

18k for Bo'ness United vs Darvel was impressive enough to provide plenty of nostalgia for me. Remember the moment the trophy was lifted as vividly as if it were yesterday. 
How about acknowledging that although the junior cup is not what it used to be it still has enough prestige surrounding it to be worth assimilating into the new structure? The South Challenge Cup has a long way to go before it draws in the big game only fans in the way later round junior cup game can.
Once the SFA fully control Hampden and Queen's Park get shunted out to Lesser Hampden maybe the final can be moved back there and turned into more of a big occasion again as the showcase event for tiers 5-9.

Yes but bit every fan, club or player feels for the junior cup the way others do.....it is a distraction for the season with the season being held up for a cup only a handful of teams will think they can win anyway.

Some seem to say as part of this proposal they're happy for league fixtures to take priority over the Junior Cup. With the scrapping of replays and two legged semi finals to make sure it fits into the calendar.

At which point does the Junior Cup still have the same feeling if its played on a random Tuesday/Wednesday because of postponement. Does it make it more likely that North club choose not to participate because they know they could lose money due to the financial commitments. With the competition no longer having the guarantee of games being played on Saturdays to maximise turnout and ease travel concerns.

Edited March 14, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[parsforlife]

Imagine the cheek to ask for 30k to do a cup draw 7 times a year?