Junior football, what is the future?

[Jacksgranda]

 

18 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

The NRJFA are biding their time until they are the only juniors left and then Banks o' Dee will win the Junior Cup. NAP

 

8 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

FTFY

I had my money on Burghead Thistle...

[patriot1]

28 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Because the south challenge cup is a cup that will include sides from tier 5 and has just as much history to those that have participated in it over the years. The junior cup isnt the holy grail cup that everyone thinks it is. I'd rather my club stayed in the south challenge cup than play in the junior cup.

On the west coming in, I have said all along that this was an open goal, hopefully the wrsjfa have been able to do what the sjfa havent been able to and they come on board.

The thing that scares me is mr TJ or the sjfa having anything to do with running it or it being linked in any way to the sjfa (retaining junior membership inclusive). If you are playing in the pyramid you are effectively a senior club, sure keep the junior tag in your name, but I doubt see how you can retain junior membership and what that looks like for a clubs, say bsc or cumbernauld colts who are relegated, do they have to then apply for membership etc?

To keep sjfa membership and the junior cup, whilst they are compromises to get the ball rolling, would only muddy the waters from the off for me. They would be held in as much esteem in 2 years when negotiated away as they are now, so what is to stop the office bearers refusing to get rid in 2 years if they arent willing to now? It seems that the LL and other leagues are and have always been the ones to compromise, what are the wrsjfa compromising with other than losing fines and reinstatement?

Completely agree. 

It seems that until after the 23rd we're not going to know the exact nature of the compromise but for me there can't be a junior/senior divide. 

And there should only be one national  league trophy. If there is a Challenge Cup and Junior Cup then I want Saints playing in the Challenge not the Junior. 

As soon as it looks like we have clarity going forward we have to complicate things again. 

Typical of Scottish football. 

[Dev]

9 hours ago, Shannon said:

Letting West teams join the pyramid as one but stay members of Junior FA and play Junior Cup would keep almost every single supporter and committee member of a West Region Junior team happy while enabling clubs who wish to join the pyramid to do so and progress. The Junior Cup has a rich and long history and if we can keep this and encourage more teams instead of fewer teams to participate and make it the premier non league cup trophy then great. The South Challenge Cup won't bring out the crowds, just ask Linlithgow them along with others would enjoy to be back in Scottish Junior Cup to make it the premier non league cup competition but league will take preference which is what we want. Will be tough to fit in with South Challenge Cup too but I am sure teams know that may have to opt out of one of regional cups if wish to play in Junior Cup but 1-6 games could be fitted in most seasons apart from this season with awful wet weather and Coronavirus. Meadow for instance last season were done by early April / end of March and could have been even earlier.

 

Seems positive discussions and both parties are making great moves towards a sensible way forward for tier 6 and below. Both sides have made concessions.

 

If plans don't fall into place then with all clubs leaving as one will leave clubs with a week or less to make a big decision so clubs will need a back up plan too if SJFA don't want this.

 

The only problem I see is Tayside so it is quite right West Region goes it alone and takes them out equation as they really can't do anything about that and North are already moving towards potential pyramid entry for licensed clubs who win league / play offs in NCL / North Region.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Letting West teams join the pyramid as one but stay members of Junior FA and play Junior Cup would keep almost every single supporter and committee member of a West Region Junior team happy while enabling clubs who wish to join the pyramid to do so and progress."

There seems to be a contradiction built into your assumption. What if any current west Junior clubs do not wish to enter the pyramid? What happens to them? Where do they go?

There's clearly no room for the Junior Cup to run alongside the South Challenge Cup. How do you get around that given that there are dead-lines to be met by top division clubs aiming for a promotion place to the Lowland League?

[Dev]

9 hours ago, santheman said:

The SJFA will do what the clubs tell them to do whether that is at an EGM or an AGM.

TJ is a Sectretary not a CEO  who has decision making powers

 

 

That's not how it has been though has it? 

[Dev]

8 hours ago, Shannon said:

I am sure Scottish Junior Football Association would not turn away any East teams who may want to become associate members like Girvan are with SFA and they will play in Junior Cup and get their annual membership fee plus have more clubs in their premier competition.

 

The East teams would still be in the pyramid and East of Scotland League members but also members of SJFA to play in Scottish Junior Cup too.

 

The Scottish Junior Cup does have much more prestige and fan pulling power than South Challenge Cup even for East teams who would like to be associate members and let this become a top non league cup trophy once again.

 

Girvan will be a senior club from next season onwards as a condition of the club licence - same as all licenced clubs.

[Burnie_man]

9 hours ago, Shannon said:

Letting West teams join the pyramid as one but stay members of Junior FA and play Junior Cup would keep almost every single supporter and committee member of a West Region Junior team happy while enabling clubs who wish to join the pyramid to do so and progress.

The independent WoSFL set-up by the LL enables clubs to join the Pyramid and progress.

The WRJFA enables clubs to remain members of the SJFA and play in the Junior Cup.

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, patriot1 said:

Completely agree. 

It seems that until after the 23rd we're not going to know the exact nature of the compromise but for me there can't be a junior/senior divide. 

And there should only be one national  league trophy. If there is a Challenge Cup and Junior Cup then I want Saints playing in the Challenge not the Junior. 

As soon as it looks like we have clarity going forward we have to complicate things again. 

Typical of Scottish football. 

Spot on.

This was the declaration given to clubs on Tuesday.  Remember this was the meeting where there was talk of legal action and shouts of "F*ck the LL".   Sounds like all four of their "demands" have been met, can someone point out the compromise here?

The LL need to stick to their declared intention of establishing an independent WoSFL free from the influence of outside parties and open to all clubs equally. Anything else is hitting reverse and ends up a fudge.

[Marshmallo]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The independent WoSFL set-up by the LL enables clubs to join the Pyramid and progress.

The WRJFA enables clubs to remain members of the SJFA and play in the Junior Cup.

Do you think a positive way forward is allowing clubs pyramid access through a new WoSFL league while simultaneously allowing them to play in the Junior Cup?

Edited March 14, 2020 by Marshmallo

[Dev]

2 hours ago, Robert James said:

 

Does anyone seriously believe that TJ is not fully aware of  this 'compromise' ? 

As Mr Ronney and Kennie's social media/P&B comments show that, for the Juniors, this is about saving the SJFA. Kennie states that the Lowland League "needs" ALL 63 west Juniors.

Well, no, this assumption is not based upon reality as the new WoS will only require a minimum number of clubs in order to get off the ground. 

If the SJFA push this too hard they will see the Lowland League walk away. 

 

[archieb]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The LL need to stick to their declared intention of establishing an independent WoSFL free from the influence of outside parties and open to all clubs equally. Anything else is hitting reverse and ends up a fudge.

F***inell!

It's 'hard Brexit' all over again!

[Marshmallo]

Why is "hitting reverse" necessarily a bad thing btw?

[Burnie_man]

Just now, archieb said:

F***inell!

It's 'hard Brexit' all over again!

No, what it is, is the west Junior clubs wanting their cake and eating it.

30 ex-Junior clubs have properly embraced the Pyramid in the east, left Junior football behind and have made a complete success of it with no outside influences as baggage, more clubs will follow that path next season.

Why can't west clubs accept that is how it is if you want to be part of the Pyramid? (or at least, should be?)

There is the option of remaining Junior and staying with the SJFA if some clubs don't fancy it.

That is how it should be,

[Dev]

5 minutes ago, archieb said:

F***inell!

It's 'hard Brexit' all over again!

But, deep down, you know it makes sense!?

[Marshmallo]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

No, what it is, is the west Junior clubs wanting their cake and eating it.

30 ex-Junior clubs have properly embraced the Pyramid in the east, left Junior football behind and have made a complete success of it with no outside influences as baggage, more clubs will follow that path next season.

Why can't west clubs accept that is how it is if you want to be part of the Pyramid? (or at least, should be?)

There is the option of remaining Junior and staying with the SJFA if some clubs don't fancy it.

That is how it should be,

 

13 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

 

[cmontheloknow]

Personally, priority should be getting West clubs into the pyramid, as a senior league. Retaining Junior FA membership I don't see as a deal breaker - provided we don't get a Scooby Doo villain scenario where true intentions are revealed once inside the pyramid - "we demand to run our own league again, with fines and reinstatements!" and we need to unmask rampaging mummies to reveal Gordon Ronney & TAJ who will then curse "if it wasn't for you pesky Seniors, we'd have gotten away with it!"

Edited March 14, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[Marshmallo]

The mummy is even wearing a Kilbrinie scarf. Jinkies!

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:

Personally, priority should be getting West clubs into the pyramid, as a senior league. Retaining Junior FA membership I don't see as a deal breaker - provided we don't get a Scooby Doo villain scenario where true intentions are revealed once inside the pyramid - "we demand to run our own league again, with fines and reinstatements!" and we need to unmask rampaging mummy to reveal Gordon Ronney & TAJ who will then curse "if it wasn't for you pesky Seniors, we'd have gotten away with it!"

It does make you wonder why there was such a change in 48 hours between a beligerant WRJFA meeting with healthy doses of fighting talk and anti-LL sentiment, and the PWG where there was no such thing and all of a sudden "common ground"

[cmontheloknow]

4 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

The mummy is even wearing a Kilbrinie scarf. Jinkies!

I hadn't even picked that up How apt.

[archieb]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

No, what it is, is the west Junior clubs wanting their cake and eating it.

30 ex-Junior clubs have properly embraced the Pyramid in the east, left Junior football behind and have made a complete success of it with no outside influences as baggage, more clubs will follow that path next season.

Why can't west clubs accept that is how it is if you want to be part of the Pyramid? (or at least, should be?)

There is the option of remaining Junior and staying with the SJFA if some clubs don't fancy it.

That is how it should be,

I totally disagree.

The senior/junior divide in Scottish non-League football has been an utterly unnecessary barrier to progress for far too long. The main reasons for its longevity have been the isolationism of the ruling cadre in the SJFA and a significant proportion of its membership.

Just when compromises are within reach to sideline these influences and bring another huge part of the former separatist group within the pyramid fold is NOT the time to create a new or renewed exclusionism from the other side.

[gaz5]

I always wanted a West feeder, so if we're getting to the stage of having one then that's a massive step forward so happy to embrace something of a compromise.

 

My issue with the proposal is the retained membership of the SJFA and that being required to play in the Junior Cup for anyone who wants to.

 

Membership means payment.

 

After the vitriol spilled towards the East club's who moved two years ago, or the threats for example to Clydebank from the top table, would any of those teams have any interest at all in giving a single red cent to the SJFA in future?

 

I'm also concerned that there will end up being teams in the pyramid who don't want to be there, as many have openly stated. One of the fundamental points that Rod Petrie put forward that most agreed with is that no one should have to play in a league they don't want to.

 

Seems this plan forces that through.

 

It's a step forward, so in that regard is good news. But I think fair to say it's not as "clean" as a completely new, independent WoSFL would be.

 

I also have to echo the comments from Born ToRun around George Fraser. Regardless of what you think of this solution, it was one that was a hard no for the SJFA and WRSJFA for years, despite being an open goal, through nothing but their own stubbornness. For him to have succeeded in facilitating a complete U-turn from that entrenched position in 3 weeks, along with the EoS and LL reps, where all before including the sports governing body had failed, deserves a bit of credit.