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Burnie_man

Junior football, what is the future?

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7 hours ago, clash city rocker said:

That's a bit of a rant lol

Reinstatement is a disgrace but have heard many junior clubs and past junior clubs complain but never did anything about it. It could have been abolished yonks ago no point moaning now.

Interesting that your clubs' representative didn't try to deal with this isn't it! Maybe doesn't have the wit or imagination, let alone care enough, to come up with such an idea. Or are you saying that he did but his suggestion got kicked out at committee?

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1 hour ago, timeforchange said:

Reinstatement is their biggest income . So the clubs are the SJFA biggest sponsor. 

….. and all the time paying someone 30k per year and sitting on a huge investment bond?

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18 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Yes, yes, we all know you have an irrational passion for regionalisation at tier 3.

My submission is logical, reasonable and based on evidence from other countries. Therefore by definition it is rational, is it not?

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Football credentials here
image.png.d2376cc1de9b630fac2949ef4bc5a539.png
 
Sorry, I was being a bit of a dick there, I know who he is. What I cannot understand is why is he is picking this hill to die on when it is so obvious that TJ and his Pension & Redundancy payment protection strategy is all that matters, I was in the room when SR got the Fixture Secretary gig when MS got punted even though he would have done a better job because angry Central League bullies.

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3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

My submission is logical, reasonable and based on evidence from other countries. Therefore by definition it is rational, is it not?

Its not at all no. I haven't seen you make a single argument more complex than 'Croatia/Belgium/whoever else regionalise at tier 3 and got to the world cup final so we need to regionalise at tier 3 too'. That isn't evidence based. Its forcing a correlation where you have absolutely no evidence that the two are linked because you want it to be true.

Come back with actual evidence that regionalising early in any way correlates to a more succesful national team, to more youth players from the lower tiers ending up in the national team. Come back with some sort of explanation of where all the money you think clubs will save by playing in a regional set up is coming from and demonstrate that it won't just be cancelled out by lower sponsorship/prize money/gates. Until then your argument remains an irrational failure to understand that correlation doesn't equal causation and that you don't actually have any real evidence from other countries that proves the same thing would work in Scotland.

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6 hours ago, Sunrise said:

 


I just get the impression that post adds nothing to this thread...

 

I realise that you are relatively new on P&B (310 posts), but if you read back over a 1,000+ posts on this forum, you may understand the historical gulf between the juniors and the seniors, in non-league football. Matches between the two 'grades', (Armadale 'juniors' : Tynecastle 'seniors') are of interest, at a time when the future of football in the West of Scotland, is at boiling point.  

Also, if you follow this forum, you will see that another P&B contributor, highlighted this friendly match, as being of interest, probably as a comparison of the relative strengths of these 2 clubs, and possibly as a way in which Armadale may be considering their future: either by joining the pyramid, or by staying junior . Nothing wrong with either !

Apologies if my earlier post, was too difficult (or too abstract) for you. 

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2 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I realise that you are relatively new on P&B (310 posts), but if you read back over a 1,000+ posts on this forum, you may understand the historical gulf between the juniors and the seniors, in non-league football. Matches between the two 'grades', (Armadale 'juniors' : Tynecastle 'seniors') are of interest, at a time when the future of football in the West of Scotland, is at boiling point.  

Also, if you follow this forum, you will see that another P&B contributor, highlighted this friendly match, as being of interest, probably as a comparison of the relative strengths of these 2 clubs, and possibly as a way in which Armadale may be considering their future: either by joining the pyramid, or by staying junior . Nothing wrong with either !

Apologies if my earlier post, was too difficult (or too abstract) for you. 

Its a friendly. All friendlies are meaningless. They're even below cup games for people trying to gauge levels of entire leagues based on two clubs in a one off game. At least cup games are competitive fixtures. With friendlies you have no idea what either side was looking to achieve (match fitness, trialists, youth players, second string players getting runs out).

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27 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

My submission is logical, reasonable and based on evidence from other countries. Therefore by definition it is rational, is it not?

Nope. It's irrational because you don't accept or consider any logic or evidence that contradicts that submission.

Flat Earthers use logic and evidence but they're irrational because they choose to ignore any logic or evidence that goes against what they want to be true.

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To be honest regarding this thread when posts are added into thread about other countries pyramid system this doesn't serve anything right now. In order to change the pyramid system will take a huge big collaboration between all parties. So personally the more important stuff on this thread is about junior teams leaving  for the pyramid or staying junior.
There are many countries whose systems  works and many whom I'm sure don't. So lets get a full system up and running including a missing WOS and then change / tweak the pyramid accordingly in the future

 

I've been looking at a few recent posts and a few people have actually said that when you come down to it, the ones for the juniors to stay don't really come up with any creditable excuse to stay, the Scottish junior cup is probably the strongest, nothing else. The excuse that many on here, forget the people who are anti junior or anti pyramid, use for reasons to join the pyramid and why it will work etc.. and the evidence is there to see and so powerful that every JUNIOR club committee including the guy at Kilbirnie are failing their club and fans if they do not look at it objectively and they really aren't looking at it objectively.  It's such a shame, my view, that these clubs are going to suffer because of certain people on each of their committees who are blinkered.

What these people have done, have really showed themselves up and its probably the correct reason why none of the other leagues want these people involved anywhere near running leagues in the pyramid as all it will do it grow criticism and resentment on each side.  Junior football is wilting away, that's a fact, it is seriously a fact as too many clubs are waking up and realising they want to be able to control their own destiny not the shelf that is produced by the junior association.

I have to add its not fair on the juniors in regards to wilting away as football is not growing in Scotland so we need change but the juniors looks as if its been deteriorating for years and has been escalating for the past couple of years in the East and now in the West and I see in the next few years there only being a few local leagues in the West, (possibly 2 divisions) and in the East, (1 division).

The youth football is in decline, has been for a long time so to be honest any junior team who don't have a youth set up collaboration is failing its club and I don't mean a party favour trade off with a player here and there getting some game time I mean a fully focused collaboration with everyone on one goal to bringing the youths through because lets face it, youths should and will be playing in all teams in 5/10/15/30 years time so the people of clubs who are blinkered, shame on you

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread

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7 minutes ago, MrWorldwideJr said:

Its not at all no. I haven't seen you make a single argument more complex than 'Croatia/Belgium/whoever else regionalise at tier 3 and got to the world cup final so we need to regionalise at tier 3 too'. That isn't evidence based. Its forcing a correlation where you have absolutely no evidence that the two are linked because you want it to be true.

Come back with actual evidence that regionalising early in any way correlates to a more succesful national team, to more youth players from the lower tiers ending up in the national team. Come back with some sort of explanation of where all the money you think clubs will save by playing in a regional set up is coming from and demonstrate that it won't just be cancelled out by lower sponsorship/prize money/gates. Until then your argument remains an irrational failure to understand that correlation doesn't equal causation and that you don't actually have any real evidence from other countries that proves the same thing would work in Scotland.

Not sure why you are you bringing in the national team argument again.  I'm talking about improving the football league structure from top to bottom, and regionalising earlier will do that. 

We have done the same thing over and over again without much success and I think making changes will make football better for supporters and for clubs, and ultimately more attractive to sponsors.  We currently have 4 leagues of 12 and 10 teams playing each other 4 times a season - this is awfully boring, wasteful and unproductive.  

A consequence might be that the national team improves over time if more emphasis is placed on facilities, coaching and development - but for now this is mainly a discussion about football structure.  

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1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Its a friendly. All friendlies are meaningless. They're even below cup games for people trying to gauge levels of entire leagues based on two clubs in a one off game. At least cup games are competitive fixtures. With friendlies you have no idea what either side was looking to achieve (match fitness, trialists, youth players, second string players getting runs out).

Was just going to post similar. We've all seen friendly results where amateur sides trounce junior teams or conversely junior teams beat SPFL XIs  convincingly. They mean nothing in the grand scheme of things because inevitably the lower graded side will treat it more seriously than the higher one will, and also in many cases one or both teams will use them as a useful exercise in running the rule over trialists/experimenting with formations etc.

Case in point: my team's last two friendlies have been against Ardeer Thistle and a Sunday amateur team, which we won 16-0 and 3-1 respectively. I certainly wouldn't cite the results as evidence that the latter are operating at a higher level than the former.

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6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Nope. It's irrational because you don't accept or consider any logic or evidence that contradicts that submission.

Flat Earthers use logic and evidence but they're irrational because they choose to ignore any logic or evidence that goes against what they want to be true.

...don't accept evidence such as...?

You continue with the angry insults.  Seeing as your club is one that may be affected, and you probably feel in some way threatened by this, could it be that it is you who is being irrational?

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7 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Not sure why you are you bringing in the national team argument again.  I'm talking about improving the football league structure from top to bottom, and regionalising earlier will do that. 

We have done the same thing over and over again without much success and I think making changes will make football better for supporters and for clubs, and ultimately more attractive to sponsors.  We currently have 4 leagues of 12 and 10 teams playing each other 4 times a season - this is awfully boring, wasteful and unproductive.  

A consequence might be that the national team improves over time if more emphasis is placed on facilities, coaching and development - but for now this is mainly a discussion about football structure.  

This post just proves my point. None of the things you are saying are actual arguments, its just buzzwords. Explain to me why the current structure is unproductive. Explain why regionalising instead would be more productive. Explain why your change is required in order for more emphasis to be placed on facilities, coaching and development. Explain why regionalising earlier will improve the football league structure, what will be better for supporters of, say, Stirling Albion if they are playing regionally instead of nationally? Explain why it would be more attractive to sponsors. You don't do any of this, you just say it would be so as it is obvious, but it isn't.

As for 'bringing up the national team argument again' - you are the one who has pushed this as the main thrust of your argument for pages and pages. If you want to change your tune now then fair enough but don't act as if its weird that people are refuting something that until recently was the main point of your argument.

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13 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

...don't accept evidence such as...?

You continue with the angry insults.  Seeing as your club is one that may be affected, and you probably feel in some way threatened by this, could it be that it is you who is being irrational?

You've pointed out countries where they regionalise at tier 3 and have success and act if that's proof but ignore all the countries who don't do that and still have successful leagues and national teams. You're are being utterly selective.

If East Fife found themselves in a regionalised league, so be it.

If we're simply talking about keeping things as they are but regionalising tiers 3 and 4 then I'm against that because it just sound like a terrible idea with no real advantage to the majority of clubs at all.

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Can we please stick to the point of the thread FFS.  There's a reconstruction thread for this pish elsewhere, let us concentrate on our own pish.

Edited by Burnie_man

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39 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Its a friendly. All friendlies are meaningless. They're even below cup games for people trying to gauge levels of entire leagues based on two clubs in a one off game. At least cup games are competitive fixtures. With friendlies you have no idea what either side was looking to achieve (match fitness, trialists, youth players, second string players getting runs out).

I agree, in principle about "friendlies"

However from reading the match summary, it appears to have been a feisty and very competitive (4-4) game. 

Also, its timing is interesting. given the pyramid situation in the West.  I can't recall Armadale & Tynecastle  playing against each other previously, although I may be wrong ?   Can you ?.  

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Well done to Dunipace yesterday - they've come a long way since leaving the Joonurs

 

''What a great day for the players, fans and committee. The players were fantastic and deserve all the praise for the victory. Caley Braves are a good side and are doing well thus far in the Lowland league.

Hopefully this current form can continue and the lads can continue to challenge in the cups and league.

It has been a considerable time since Dunipace have been in the semi final of a cup. The club is a million miles away from where we were this time 2 years ago, both on the park and off it.

Exciting times!''

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41 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Nope. It's irrational because you don't accept or consider any logic or evidence that contradicts that submission.

Flat Earthers use logic and evidence but they're irrational because they choose to ignore any logic or evidence that goes against what they want to be true.

Flat Earthers have never been to Beiths ground.

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1 minute ago, razamanaz said:

Well done to Dunipace yesterday - they've come a long way since leaving the Joonurs

 

''What a great day for the players, fans and committee. The players were fantastic and deserve all the praise for the victory. Caley Braves are a good side and are doing well thus far in the Lowland league.

Hopefully this current form can continue and the lads can continue to challenge in the cups and league.

It has been a considerable time since Dunipace have been in the semi final of a cup. The club is a million miles away from where we were this time 2 years ago, both on the park and off it.

Exciting times!''

21 years possibly? My divisional records stop in 2011 (catching up a wee project for a very rainy day!) but they won the Evening Times Cup in 1998-99.

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12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Can we please stick to the point of the thread FFS.  There's a reconstruction thread for this pish elsewhere, let us concentrate on our own pish.

Tuesday and thursday nights meetings will be interesting. I imagine Ronney could cause controversy at lowland league meeting.

In the initial posts with ronney he seemed fairly reasonable and trying to do it with the right reasons but sometimes and I find it myself when you start getting bogged down in an argument you start to lose perspective and ppl lose the plot. Why we had 8 pages coz I offered a suggestion to the grades fixture secretary who took it as criticism of the grade. So Romney's motives was to get all teams in but it's now bogged down on saving the grade and  now is no benefit to anyone. Politicians get into politics tofor the right reasons but it ends up oh so different 

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