Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

27 minutes ago, the rambler said:

How do you know this? Other posters say that the Club's forming the new League(s) will have a say in how they are formed. It won't necessarily be a mirror of  what happened in the East. 

He doesn't know definitively. On Thursday one of the things the clubs will be told "The options for the structure of the new league". Chances are they will suggest something like single division or Conferences if there are more than a single division. Until we know the exact membership nothing can be definitively confirmed. Which is common sense. There's no point being any more convoluted than that. But that's where follow up questions can come from those in attendance.

Then there's the follow up meeting in April where league structure will be confirmed with those accepted.

[Jacksgranda]

11 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

Flying in the face of all the available evidence there then.

Don't forget there has already been a precedent set due to all the ex-Juniors who have joined and continue to join the EoS - good luck pointing out one single team that has been refused entry to date with the exception of Syngenta who got picked up by the East Juniors.

Any reason why the process should be any different in the West?

Because...haters...grade...134 years of history...traitors...etc

[the rambler]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

He doesn't know definitively. On Thursday one of the things the clubs will be told "The options for the structure of the new league". Chances are they will suggest something like single division or Conferences if there are more than a single division. Until we know the exact membership nothing can be definitively confirmed. Which is common sense. There's no point being any more convoluted than that. But that's where follow up questions can come from those in attendance.

Then there's the follow up meeting in April where league structure will be confirmed with those accepted.

Thank you

[Burnie_man]

11 hours ago, Killiepiyo said:

They'll do and accept what ever they want

 

12 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Partial truths will be told.

 

11 hours ago, Killiepiyo said:

Like 'everyone will be accepted'?

Those aren't questions, you are clearly intimating that the LL would "cherry pick" clubs and turn everyone else away.

Why have you come to the conclusion that the LL are only partially truthful on this?  If you are innocently asking questions and seeking clarity, you don't post what you have posted.

[Footballfirst]

44 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I'm going to guess the clubs at Thursdays meeting will want to know structure for next season, they will want to be told.  The plan from what I've heard is to have a Conference structure like the EoS for the first season to allow every club to join at tier 6 regardless of where they came from (Junior, SoS, Amateur, other), a mirror of what happened in the EoS.

I don't think they will be "told" what the structure will be as they can't know the numbers involved as yet, unless a decision has already been made to implement conferences, which would go against the LL's and EOSFL's democratic approach. However, they may get a couple of options outlined with a decision to be made at the April meeting. 

I'd hope that conferences at tier 6 aren't a given. The number of applications accepted should drive the structure with the clubs themselves choosing the final option.  Anything up to 18 should be a single division, up to the mid 30s would probably be better as two conferences, but once you get to 40 plus it's, in my opinion, a better option to create a 16 team premier with conferences below that.   It will advance the merit process by a season. 

The big difference to the East scenario is that the WOSFL is a brand new structure, although the relative merits of the majority of applicants will be known from their existing leagues.  The East had to merge an existing league while incorporating a large number of new applicants.  The conference arrangement was appropriate in that instance, but even then the league positions of the ex-junior clubs and the EOSFL clubs determined their seeding in the conferences. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Footballfirst

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

I don't think they will be "told" what the structure will be as they can't know the numbers involved as yet, unless a decision has already been made to implement conferences, which would go against the way that the LL's and EOSFL's democratic approach. However, they may get a couple of options outlined with a decision to be made at the April meeting. 

I'd hope that conferences at tier 6 aren't a given. The number of applications accepted should drive the structure with the clubs themselves choosing the final option.  Anything up to 18 should be a single division, up to the mid 30s would probably be better as two conferences, but once you get to 40 plus it's, in my opinion, a better option to create a 16 team premier with conferences below that.   It will advance the merit process by a season. 

The big difference to the East scenario is that the WOSFL is a brand new structure, although the relative merits of the majority of applicants will be known from their existing leagues.  The East had to merge an existing league while incorporating a large number of new applicants.  The conference arrangement was appropriate in that instance, but even then the league positions of the ex-junior clubs and the EOSFL clubs determined their seeding in the conferences. 

I don't disagree with any of that, but as you say it's a brand new structure, therefore the principle applies that everyone is equal and a system is implemented to grade clubs for the following season, ie Conferences?

There may not be existing members, but there will be members from different grades of football, so how do you tell a club that they are not worthy of tier 6?  Glasgow Uni for example, SFA members and Licence holders who are interested, do they get told where to go by ex-Junior clubs who are in the overwhelming majority? What about an SoS club such as Bonnyton?

[Gordon EF]

5 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I don't think they will be "told" what the structure will be as they can't know the numbers involved as yet, unless a decision has already been made to implement conferences, which would go against the way that the LL's and EOSFL's democratic approach. However, they may get a couple of options outlined with a decision to be made at the April meeting. 

I'd hope that conferences at tier 6 aren't a given. The number of applications accepted should drive the structure with the clubs themselves choosing the final option.  Anything up to 18 should be a single division, up to the mid 30s would probably be better as two conferences, but once you get to 40 plus it's, in my opinion, a better option to create a 16 team premier with conferences below that.   It will advance the merit process by a season. 

The big difference to the East scenario is that the WOSFL is a brand new structure, although the relative merits of the majority of applicants will be known from their existing leagues.  The East had to merge an existing league while incorporating a large number of new applicants.  The conference arrangement was appropriate in that instance, but even then the league positions of the ex-junior clubs and the EOSFL clubs determined their seeding in the conferences. 

I suppose the issue will be, how to you assess the merit of non-WRSJFA members against current WRSJFA clubs.

If it was all West Juniors applying or if it's all West Juniors plus a handful of clubs who're willing to go in at the bottom level, simply transporting over final positions from this season into the WoSFL structure would be easy.

 

[Footballfirst]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I don't disagree with any of that, but as you say it's a brand new structure, therefore the principle applies that everyone is equal and a system is implemented to grade clubs for the following season, ie Conferences?

There may not be existing members, but there will be members from different grades of football, so how do you tell a club that they are not worthy of tier 6?  Glasgow Uni for example, SFA members and Licence holders who are interested, do they get told where to go by ex-Junior clubs who are in the overwhelming majority? What about an SoS club such as Bonnyton?

The principle of equality is fine, but I would hope that each non junior applicant club would be considered individually, e.g Bonnyton is already at tier 6.  Glasgow Uni may also consider themselves worthy of a tier 6 position, while an amateur side might not fancy facing Talbot or the Buffs, but would readily accept a tier 7 place, just to get into the structure.  

Edited March 9, 2020 by Footballfirst

[Bestsinceslicebread]

Personally being equal saves any hassle to start the league off with.
If there is 16 teams or less then its a simple one division if more then best to put it into two conferences and top half of each league at end of season join together to form the top league in tier 6 and the other bottom half's the 2nd division and any new team after that follow on divisions behind.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Gordon EF said:

I suppose the issue will be, how to you assess the merit of non-WRSJFA members against current WRSJFA clubs.

If it was all West Juniors applying or if it's all West Juniors plus a handful of clubs who're willing to go in at the bottom level, simply transporting over final positions from this season into the WoSFL structure would be easy.

 

This is why I only see the proposal being single division or Conferences. The LL/EoS/SoS aren't going to want to rank clubs. If the eventual members decide they want to rank each other  into tiers of some sort let them bring it up and vote on it.

Chances are the vote will go for Conferences, as we've seen with the EoS voting, albeit slightly, for Conferences again next year.

 

[glensmad]

3 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Personally being equal saves any hassle to start the league off with.

I would agree with this, and would save any arguments about who gets ranked above who.

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Why does it bother you so much ? It's already been discussed on here.

I'm going to guess the clubs at Thursdays meeting will want to know structure for next season, they will want to be told.  The plan from what I've heard is to have a Conference structure like the EoS for the first season to allow every club to join at tier 6 regardless of where they came from (Junior, SoS, Amateur, other), a mirror of what happened in the EoS.

I am concerned that some of the junior club Reps (eg Ronney ?) will attend the Lowland  meeting for the wrong reasons.  Instead of having a genuine interest in learning about, and joining the (senior) WoSL pyramid league, they may try to disrupt (and confuse) the meeting by promoting the WRJFA league, and  arguing for the outcome from the Junior's meeting tomorrow.

Any such attempt to muddy the waters, must be firmly dismissed by the Lowland (& SFA) management meeting coordinators. 

I hope that my concern is unfounded.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Robert James
typo error

[FairWeatherFan]

Considering how much smaller clubs love being in the Sectional League Cup against the bigger teams, why would they care if they were in the same league as them? They'd probably look at it as a payday for a year and then back to normality.

Keep in mind as well with Conferences they won't all be against Premiership sides. 51 divided by 3 equals out to 17 each. At worst you're in a Conference with 6 Premiership sides the the other10 would be against clubs more their level.

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The principle of equality is fine, but I would hope that each non junior applicant club would be considered individually, e.g Bonnyton is already at tier 6.  Glasgow Uni may also consider themselves worthy of a tier 6 position, while an amateur side might not fancy facing Talbot or the Buffs, but would readily accept a tier 7 place, just to get into the structure.  

Very difficult to implement whilst being fair to all clubs.

Conferences for the first seasons are a fair as you can get if you accept that every new members is equal. There's then no debate about where the non-Junior clubs are placed.

[Burnie_man]

10 minutes ago, glensmad said:

I would agree with this, and would save any arguments about who gets ranked above who.

Correct.  Imagine the scenario where [if all top clubs apply] whoever is top of the Championship this season doesn't get into the new tier 6, whilst a club who finished in the Premiership relegation positions "retains" their top league status.

Who decides either way?  Not convinced the LL/EoS/SoS are going to encourage conflict from the start.

[theesel1994]

11 minutes ago, Robert James said:

 

I am concerned that some of the junior club Reps (eg Ronney ?) will attend the Lowland  meeting for the wrong reasons.  Instead of having a genuine interest in learning about, and joining the (senior) WoSL pyramid league, they may try to disrupt (and confuse) the meeting by promoting the WRJFA league, by 'promoting' the outcome from the Junior's meeting tomorrow.

The LL/EoSL/SoSL will have the perfect opportunity to correct (if any) incorrect statements put out by the West Region.

[Baldie2k19]

If more than 16 teams apply, which looks very likely then conferences are the only answer. Ranking teams is also the fairest way.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Baldie2k19
Typo

[AlanCamelonfan]

9 minutes ago, theesel1994 said:

The LL/EoSL/SoSL will have the perfect opportunity to correct (if any) incorrect statements put out by the West Region.

I can imagine Romney at the meeting  but but but 150k toilets lol

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Baldie2k19 said:

If more than 16 teams apply, which looks very likely then conferences are the only answer. Ranking teams is also the fairest way.

Its also really the only way to simply state what will happen not knowing the eventual numbers. So then everyone will be applying on the idea that it will be Conferences anyway.

[Che Dail]

14 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Considering how much smaller clubs love being in the Sectional League Cup against the bigger teams, why would they care if they were in the same league as them? They'd probably look at it as a payday for a year and then back to normality.

Keep in mind as well with Conferences they won't all be against Premiership sides. 51 divided by 3 equals out to 17 each. At worst you're in a Conference with 6 Premiership sides the the other10 would be against clubs more their level.

Yes, there were plenty positives about that first season of conferences:

- Everyone starts on an equal footing

- 3 conference winners produced

- 1 eventual overall winner gained promotion to the Lowland League

- Top 5 rewarded with promotion to the top league for the following season

- Relatively big gates for lower-level clubs 

- New cups and competitions - One providing access to the Scottish Cup

- Visits to new venues and different clubs

- All clubs with renewed focus on improving facilities, regardless of league position, working towards gaining a club license

- All clubs treated fairly

It should feel like a completely new and exciting start for everyone involved.  The process might and probably will result in exactly the same top league being created as the West Premier - so I can see the point folk are making that a season could be saved by 'restoring' the top level now... but what's the rush, in the grand scheme of things? Everyone will find their level naturally over time.