Burnie_man Posted February 27, 2020 Author Share Posted February 27, 2020 6 minutes ago, craigkillie said: This would be a terrible retrograde step. Every club in Scotland should have a theoretical opportunity to qualify for the Scottish Cup, regardless of their resources. The rewards for getting a license should be guaranteed Scottish Cup entry, financial benefits and eligibility for different levels of the pyramid. Other clubs should still be able to qualify by winning a variety of qualifying competitions (eg Tier 6 league winners, winners of various cups). You can look at it another way and look at clubs who so far have refused to engage with the Pyramid, SFA, or Licencing, coming into the competition - without the need to maintain a licence - and making a lot of money out of it before going back to their own "grade". That's the way it's being looked at I believe. The Pyramid and Licencing is open to all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: You can look at it another way and look at clubs who so far have refused to engage with the Pyramid, SFA, or Licencing, coming into the competition - without the need to maintain a licence - and making a lot of money out of it before going back to their own "grade". That's the way it's being looked at I believe. The Pyramid and Licencing is open to all. Except the expansion of qualifiers has been to those inside the pyramid as well. Tier 6 champions. South & East Cup Winners Shield. The WOSFL are probably going to want some access opportunities for non-licensed members in the same way. You just have to scrap the junior league champions route as far as i'm concerned. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted February 27, 2020 Author Share Posted February 27, 2020 Just now, FairWeatherFan said: Except the expansion of qualifiers has been to those inside the pyramid as well. Tier 6 champions. South & East Cup Winners Shield. The WOSFL are probably going to want some access opportunities for non-licensed members in the same way. You just have to scrap the junior league champions route as far as i'm concerned. I think the motion is going to be Licenced clubs only in the Scottish Cup from 21-22. Whether it passes or not remains to be seen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Burnie_man said: I think the motion is going to be Licenced clubs only in the Scottish Cup from 21-22. Whether it passes or not remains to be seen. Glad to see that Tranent will be one of those Licensed clubs. All of our top 9 clubs are Licensed so no issue of not getting a promoted club from the EoSFL to the Lowland League at the end of the season Hopefully clubs in the new WoSFL will soon be in the same position. And what is left for those remaining in the WRJFA and ERJFA rumps? Edited February 27, 2020 by Pyramidic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, AML67 said: At a recent South meeting Rod Petrie appeared to be Championing an all in 1 round scenario to avoid this 3 preliminary rounds scenario which virtually all in attendance agreed with Make this happen. I know someone will find one but I can't see any drawbacks to this. Everyone in, round one, a few byes to the 2nd round to make it work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 17 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: Make this happen. I know someone will find one but I can't see any drawbacks to this. Everyone in, round one, a few byes to the 2nd round to make it work. By all in, I don't think they'd be meaning an open draw. I'm the sure Premiership sides won't enter till the 3rd or 4th round for example. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrimpLok Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 29 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: By all in, I don't think they'd be meaning an open draw. I'm the sure Premiership sides won't enter till the 3rd or 4th round for example. A suitable longer term option might be Premiership in at R4, Championship at R3, League 1/2 at R2. This would allow for 80 teams to enter R1 which would amply cover, HL, LL and current licensed teams (63 in total). Even after an influx of WOS teams getting licensed you wouldn’t need a huge preliminary round. That proposal may be a bit too far to move straight into this year so I’d expect something more like what Marten suggests. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stulch Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 A suitable longer term option might be Premiership in at R4, Championship at R3, League 1/2 at R2. This would allow for 80 teams to enter R1 which would amply cover, HL, LL and current licensed teams (63 in total). Even after an influx of WOS teams getting licensed you wouldn’t need a huge preliminary round. That proposal may be a bit too far to move straight into this year so I’d expect something more like what Marten suggests.And you'd hope the highest placed (from the previous season) x number of HL & LL league teams got a bye into round 2. With only a draw for a bye if there was an odd number (as in if the last bye was given to the HL or LL club). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said: By all in, I don't think they'd be meaning an open draw. I'm the sure Premiership sides won't enter till the 3rd or 4th round for example. Bugger. I want a proper all in cup. Would be far better for everyone involved. Especially as the prize money will (surely?) start to get diluted as more and more clubs get licensed. One fairly easy way of countering this would be having better opportunity for big paydays via gate money on matches being picked for telly. Round 1 - Celtic v Golspie and Camelon v Dundee United, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: Bugger. I want a proper all in cup. Would be far better for everyone involved. Especially as the prize money will (surely?) start to get diluted as more and more clubs get licensed. One fairly easy way of countering this would be having better opportunity for big paydays via gate money on matches being picked for telly. Round 1 - Celtic v Golspie and Camelon v Dundee United, etc. The only way I could see it happening is if you started to seed the draw. Premiership sides won't be happy with the extra games. The sfa & tv companies won't want the likes of the bigger audience draws going against each other on and getting knocked out by Christmas. Spfl might be happy with it encroaching on league cup time as the big teams in competition would overlap. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: The only way I could see it happening is if you started to seed the draw. Premiership sides won't be happy with the extra games. The sfa & tv companies won't want the likes of the bigger audience draws going against each other on and getting knocked out by Christmas. Spfl might be happy with it encroaching on league cup time as the big teams in competition would overlap. I'm not sure there would be many extra games tho' would there? There were 102 entrants last year. If they had went all in to a first round together that would be 7 games all in from first round to final. There wont be more than 128 entrants this year so that number would remain the same. Celtic played five matched in the Scottish Cup this year. Two games isn't a huge jump. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrimpLok Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 7 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: I'm not sure there would be many extra games tho' would there? There were 102 entrants last year. If they had went all in to a first round together that would be 7 games all in from first round to final. There wont be more than 128 entrants this year so that number would remain the same. Celtic played five matched in the Scottish Cup this year. Two games isn't a huge jump. You could have Premiership teams coming in at current R3 (November) and have everyone else enter in current R2 (October). That works for up to 116 licensed teams / unlicensed entrants (Looks like 105 licensed / 4-8 unlicensed for 2020-21) so you wouldn’t need to reintroduce Round 1 until you had another 3-7 licensed teams (11 if you exclude all unlicensed entrants). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 3 hours ago, AML67 said: At a recent South meeting Rod Petrie appeared to be Championing an all in 1 round scenario to avoid this 3 preliminary rounds scenario which virtually all in attendance agreed with An excellent idea if the numbers work out okay. Well done RP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 3 hours ago, Burnie_man said: You can look at it another way and look at clubs who so far have refused to engage with the Pyramid, SFA, or Licencing, coming into the competition - without the need to maintain a licence - and making a lot of money out of it before going back to their own "grade". That's the way it's being looked at I believe. The Pyramid and Licencing is open to all. That might apply to Junior clubs, but there are plenty of sides within the pyramid who are not quite at the stage of getting licensed and who have routes into the Scottish Cup currently. Indeed, a good Scottish Cup run could be the thing that helps them finance their licensing process. Camelon entered this season's Scottish Cup via the South & East Cup-Winners' Shield - it would be a bit weird to accuse them of "refusing to engage" given that they literally gained their license this week and will now compete permanently. Musselburgh are in a similar boat for next season and it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up getting licensed next year. The SFA have tightened their guidelines on licensing over the last couple of years, which makes it harder for clubs to get one. It would be horribly elitist to then pull up the drawbridge and shut-out clubs who simply aren't in a position to afford it right now. If they introduce a more basic license which these clubs can apply for then fair enough, but I haven't heard anything along those lines. 29 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: I'm not sure there would be many extra games tho' would there? There were 102 entrants last year. If they had went all in to a first round together that would be 7 games all in from first round to final. There wont be more than 128 entrants this year so that number would remain the same. Celtic played five matched in the Scottish Cup this year. Two games isn't a huge jump. The fixture schedule is already absolutely packed for Premiership clubs - it's not clear where these extra rounds would fit in. Rangers, for example, already have a rearranged league game against St Johnstone which literally has no available date before the split, and they haven't even had a single cup replay or weather related postponement (beyond Livi which was rearranged the next day). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted February 27, 2020 Author Share Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, craigkillie said: That might apply to Junior clubs, but there are plenty of sides within the pyramid who are not quite at the stage of getting licensed and who have routes into the Scottish Cup currently. Indeed, a good Scottish Cup run could be the thing that helps them finance their licensing process. Camelon entered this season's Scottish Cup via the South & East Cup-Winners' Shield - it would be a bit weird to accuse them of "refusing to engage" given that they literally gained their license this week and will now compete permanently. Musselburgh are in a similar boat for next season and it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up getting licensed next year. The SFA have tightened their guidelines on licensing over the last couple of years, which makes it harder for clubs to get one. It would be horribly elitist to then pull up the drawbridge and shut-out clubs who simply aren't in a position to afford it right now. If they introduce a more basic license which these clubs can apply for then fair enough, but I haven't heard anything along those lines. I completely agree with the view that if a club doesn't engage with the senior pyramid then they forfeit the right to compete in a senior competition. I've never personally agreed with Amateur teams taking part who play on a school pitch and then have to go and find somewhere else to play the game. That said, I agree that the Licencing categories really need looked at. Entry level extends from League One all the way down to Burntisland Shipyard. Maybe there needs to be a "Basic" level which allows you to compete in the Scottish. Edited February 27, 2020 by Burnie_man 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 39 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: I'm not sure there would be many extra games tho' would there? There were 102 entrants last year. If they had went all in to a first round together that would be 7 games all in from first round to final. There wont be more than 128 entrants this year so that number would remain the same. Celtic played five matched in the Scottish Cup this year. Two games isn't a huge jump. Sorry, but it won't happen as an all in "open" draw. SPFL clubs wouldn't vote for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobby Dossar Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 24 minutes ago, Robert James said: An excellent idea if the numbers work out okay. Well done RP. Some people on hear are delusional if they think this is going to happen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 11 minutes ago, Robert James said: Sorry, but it won't happen as an all in "open" draw. SPFL clubs wouldn't vote for it. If it's a member led organisation could they not be outvoted? Not sure of the details on how it's decided 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: If it's a member led organisation could they not be outvoted? Not sure of the details on how it's decided 42-33 as things stand. Clubs outside the professional game board don't get to vote. So if all the SPFL clubd vote against it that's it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Premiership clubs starting in the same round as everyone else isn't going to happen, let's get real. And should you really want a fixture like Celtic v Burntisland Shipyard? I've been to Lochee United v Burntisland Shipyard in the 1st preliminary round this season. That finished 7-0 and the only reason that the score wasn't higher, was because the pitch was awful due to it pouring down with rain so Lochee didn't want to take any unnecessary risks and slowed down considerably in the second half, otherwise I have no doubt the game would've ended in double figures. Imagine them playing Celtic... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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