Junior football, what is the future?

[San Starko Rover]

Larry from Lochee is busy

Whatever happened to Larry “it’s a done deal” ?
Did he ever actually apologise to Burnieman?

I’m just curious as if what’s left of the South Tay team go EOS, the North Juniors join up with the HL and NCL and the big west teams defect to a WOS Tayside are going to be kind of just left behind.

[San Starko Rover]

 
I can't speak for any clubs, but the Brechin case will at least make it crystal clear what happens with the boundary. With how the ERJFA south is disappearing fast, something needs to happen here. I personally wouldn't want to see an ERJFA with just Tayside, then I'd rather see a merger of ERJFA north with NRJFA (assuming no boundary change).

I know they want to be Lowland League territory but surely they should be in talks with NRJFA in case the boundary remains. Or at the very least asking for confirmation that the boundary is set in stone or being looked at.

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, Marten said:

I can't speak for any clubs, but the Brechin case will at least make it crystal clear what happens with the boundary. With how the ERJFA south is disappearing fast, something needs to happen here. I personally wouldn't want to see an ERJFA with just Tayside, then I'd rather see a merger of ERJFA north with NRJFA (assuming no boundary change).

This would be a good way forward - a new 'Super League' of Dundee and Aberdeen clubs, affiliating to the HFL.  

Edited February 23, 2020 by Che Dail

[Dev]

Junior football, what is the future?

The existence of Junior football, as well as Amateur and Welfare, is a symptom of the lack of forward thinking which has been allowed to play a part in Scottish football for many years. That is partly due to the tribal nature of the country and the “us and them” attitudes even when there’s really no difference at all between people. Daft!

I say it’s a symptom only, as it’s not the cause of the national teams under-performing for many years. That’s down to this “us and them” attitude.  Looking for differences instead of recognising that everyone’s the same really!

There have been those in the SFA who’ve banged their heads against brick walls trying to drag others into the 21^st Century but they’ve not been given the support.

Scotland has the talented people, more than enough, indeed. Look at classic examples of national success and improvement with extremely limited numbers of players to choose from e.g. Iceland and Wales. These nations wised-up twenty years ago and realised that they had to because they would be buried otherwise.

They realised that, in any competitive  game, the national team could only field eleven players at a time, plus substitutions and back-up Reserves, so maybe 22 – 25 needed for a national squad. They knew that they had to target that number of kids coming through for each generation of kids. They didn’t go far beyond that so they focussed on the best. That’s why Iceland and Wales have groups of talented youths and under-age teams coming through the system – maybe half a dozen from each group will make it into the Pro scene and that is enough to maintain a healthy 22 – 25 national squad for ever.

They also made a point of early identification of  talented young players born elsewhere but who are qualified through parentage or via grand-parents. They made a pitch for these talents as soon as they were identified and gave them high quality free coaching  with national age-group squads. This gave these exiles reason to buy into the national “brand” and most retain that loyalty thereafter despite pressures from larger countries e.g. England to join them.

Both Iceland and Wales focussed on identifying the young kids who had the necessary qualities i.e. Aptitude, Athleticism and Attitude.  Must have all three. They made a coaching network covering their countries which searched out all of the kids who had these ingredients and they gave them the opportunity to receive high quality coaching. Others were integrated from outside the nation as mentioned above. They then monitored their progress as they grew older. Any kids with talent were identified. The coaching network also helped the kids to be identified by senior clubs so there are pathways through to the top level of the game – across western Europe – not just at home.

The top league structure in Iceland and Wales is not so important for bringing through talent although these leagues have turned up youngsters who fell through the net as far as talent identification is concerned. Some move on to full time professional clubs and make careers out of it. Owain Tudor Jones of Inverness Caley Thistle is one Welsh example. He came through the much maligned Welsh top league. Tom Bradshaw who ended up with Millwall is another. There have been lots over the years.

The ultimate point here is, in my view, the very existence of artificial  “Grades” in Scottish football is archaic and a sign of a failure to keep up with the times. England abandoned the Amateur status years ago. Northern Ireland re-structured its’ football and Wales is doing the same at present. Interestingly these all included lengthy consultations with all interested groups. These groups felt included so progress was made and not blocked.

That’s where all of this links back into the topic of this thread: Junior football, what is the future?

 

Scotland has more than enough talent to succeed in the European and World Cups. It just needs sorting. Maybe Petrie and Maxwell will be the boys who can bring about the necessary changes. Support them, advise them, correct them if needs be but don't sit on hands moaning!

[Marten]

2 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

I know they want to be Lowland League territory but surely they should be in talks with NRJFA in case the boundary remains. Or at the very least asking for confirmation that the boundary is set in stone or being looked at.

 

Tbh, I don't know what's happening behind the scenes. The ERJFA north & NRJFA have a joint cup tournament, so I'm sure some discussions about what's going on in junior football will happen when north & Tayside teams meet. Even if it's just committee members having a chat on what they expect to happen.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Marten

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, San Starko Rover said:

I know they want to be Lowland League territory but surely they should be in talks with NRJFA in case the boundary remains. Or at the very least asking for confirmation that the boundary is set in stone or being looked at.

The way the NCL and North Region discussions are meant to be leaning is a play-off between two licenced champions. Basically a version of the existing EoS v. SoS playoff. It's also not clear if the HL will cap their league beyond the existing maximum of 20, so they avoid relegating current members.

So the Tayside Juniors aren't missing out on anything in the Highland area at the minute.

[Gordon EF]

32 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

My point was general regarding regionalised leagues from Tier 3 downwards, following on from my point about 4 tiers when we only have 42 teams being too many.

It wasn't specifically related to the form of the national team. (Or lack of it)

Would it make the national team better on its own ?

Almost certainly not, but it might as part of a thorough look, then rejig of Scottish football.

Talking about 'off topic', the form of the national team in a Juniors forum ??

It was a strand of the thread specifically talking about the performance of the national team.

You're complaining that this conversation is pulling the thread off topic and you've decided the best way to do that is to jump into that conversation without the full context and pull it in yet another direction.

[Marshmallo]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

Jesus Christ. f**k off eh?

The irony of that balloon having a go at anyone else for dragging a thread off topic

And what of SFA members Golspie Sutherland? Sources say neighbours are objecting to the installation of lights, which may prejudice their SFA license.

[Che Dail]

37 minutes ago, Dev said:

Junior football, what is the future?

The existence of Junior football, as well as Amateur and Welfare, is a symptom of the lack of forward thinking which has been allowed to play a part in Scottish football for many years. That is partly due to the tribal nature of the country and the “us and them” attitudes even when there’s really no difference at all between people. Daft!

I say it’s a symptom only, as it’s not the cause of the national teams under-performing for many years. That’s down to this “us and them” attitude.  Looking for differences instead of recognising that everyone’s the same really!

There have been those in the SFA who’ve banged their heads against brick walls trying to drag others into the 21^st Century but they’ve not been given the support.

Scotland has the talented people, more than enough, indeed. Look at classic examples of national success and improvement with extremely limited numbers of players to choose from e.g. Iceland and Wales. These nations wised-up twenty years ago and realised that they had to because they would be buried otherwise.

They realised that, in any competitive  game, the national team could only field eleven players at a time, plus substitutions and back-up Reserves, so maybe 22 – 25 needed for a national squad. They knew that they had to target that number of kids coming through for each generation of kids. They didn’t go far beyond that so they focussed on the best. That’s why Iceland and Wales have groups of talented youths and under-age teams coming through the system – maybe half a dozen from each group will make it into the Pro scene and that is enough to maintain a healthy 22 – 25 national squad for ever.

They also made a point of early identification of  talented young players born elsewhere but who are qualified through parentage or via grand-parents. They made a pitch for these talents as soon as they were identified and gave them high quality free coaching  with national age-group squads. This gave these exiles reason to buy into the national “brand” and most retain that loyalty thereafter despite pressures from larger countries e.g. England to join them.

Both Iceland and Wales focussed on identifying the young kids who had the necessary qualities i.e. Aptitude, Athleticism and Attitude.  Must have all three. They made a coaching network covering their countries which searched out all of the kids who had these ingredients and they gave them the opportunity to receive high quality coaching. Others were integrated from outside the nation as mentioned above. They then monitored their progress as they grew older. Any kids with talent were identified. The coaching network also helped the kids to be identified by senior clubs so there are pathways through to the top level of the game – across western Europe – not just at home.

The top league structure in Iceland and Wales is not so important for bringing through talent although these leagues have turned up youngsters who fell through the net as far as talent identification is concerned. Some move on to full time professional clubs and make careers out of it. Owain Tudor Jones of Inverness Caley Thistle is one Welsh example. He came through the much maligned Welsh top league. Tom Bradshaw who ended up with Millwall is another. There have been lots over the years.

The ultimate point here is, in my view, the very existence of artificial  “Grades” in Scottish football is archaic and a sign of a failure to keep up with the times. England abandoned the Amateur status years ago. Northern Ireland re-structured its’ football and Wales is doing the same at present. Interestingly these all included lengthy consultations with all interested groups. These groups felt included so progress was made and not blocked.

That’s where all of this links back into the topic of this thread: Junior football, what is the future?

 

Scotland has more than enough talent to succeed in the European and World Cups. It just needs sorting. Maybe Petrie and Maxwell will be the boys who can bring about the necessary changes. Support them, advise them, correct them if needs be but don't sit on hands moaning!

I agree with a lot of this - especially the point about focus - decisions on where and how to focus financial resources, coaching, facilities and time.

See this excellent article on the subject: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/08/iceland-stunning-rise-euro-2016-gylfi-sigurdsson-lars-lagerback

Snippet:

Could British football change, learn, adapt, pick apart the strands? Lennon has a bit of a laugh at this. “I don’t know. Maybe we’re just more greedy about it. There’s people back in the UK taking massive salaries for the same job they do in Iceland. People in those FAs, they’ve got massive egos and they want those high salaries. Whereas here they’re all about developing the game. So I don’t know. You’d have to see massive change. Maybe not just in football.”

Edited February 23, 2020 by Che Dail

[nicotina]

does ryan giggs have any league of wales players in his squads

genuine ?

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, nicotina said:

does ryan giggs have any league of wales players in his squads

genuine ?

The Wales squad for Euro 2016 had two players at clubs in Wales, both at Swansea City. None from the League of Wales set up, but did have two from Scottish clubs.

Northern Ireland has no Northern Irish based players, but four from clubs in Scotland.

The Republic of Ireland had no players from clubs in the Republic of Ireland.

Iceland that year had no players from Icelandic clubs.

Basically we need a regionalised third tier so we can develop players in their teens and sell them to clubs in other leagues.

[Sergeant Wilson]

16 minutes ago, nicotina said:

does ryan giggs have any league of wales players in his squads

genuine ?

League of Wales, you're going back a bit there.

[Ray Patterson]

4 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Good to get opinions but opinions need to be challenged. The Ants position for example ignores that the EoS/LL will not sanction the SJFA in the pyramid therefore it is not a 'simple but strong solution'. It is a deal-breaking failure.

It's a bit like saying the only thing stopping me flying is gravity.

[Ray Patterson]

17 minutes ago, nicotina said:

does ryan giggs have any league of wales players in his squads

genuine ?

No the Welsh Premier League is effectively a pub league tbf. Alloa when they were in League One hammered the 2nd placed Bala Town on their own patch whilst playing a shadow side.

[Che Dail]

19 minutes ago, nicotina said:

does ryan giggs have any league of wales players in his squads

genuine ?

Giggs was born in Cardiff and moved to Manchester aged 6. Played for England Schoolboys.

Mark Hughes from Wrexham signed for Utd straight from school. 

Bale involved at Southampton age 9.

Key thing for me is the absence of a full time professional clubs in Wales, and N.Ireland as someone else is pointing to. 

Similar to Iceland, the priorities for football are different.

 

 

[Burnie_man]

Giggs was born in Cardiff and moved to Manchester aged 6. Played for England Schoolboys.
Mark Hughes from Wrexham signed for Utd straight from school. 
Bale involved at Southampton age 9.
Key thing for me is the absence of a full time professional clubs in Wales, and N.Ireland as someone else is pointing to. 
Similar to Iceland, the priorities for football are different.
 
 

Stop it [emoji85]

[cmontheloknow]

18 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

No the Welsh Premier League is effectively a pub league tbf. Alloa when they were in League One hammered the 2nd placed Bala Town on their own patch whilst playing a shadow side.

You'll have seen Connah's Quay Nomads the last few seasons, even TNS going back a wee bit further do not too badly in the Irn Bru cup. And CQN also dumped Killie out of Europe. Yes CQN are a hoof-balling team of hacking Scousers but the Welsh League is on a par with L1/2.

Edited February 23, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[Che Dail]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Stop it

Canny help it 

[Pyramidic]

Think that it is about time this thread got back on track.

I also follow the NLM Forum.  Yesterday Prorege (normally an excellent source) said:

"Hearing today from an informed source that around 25 clubs will remain in the West Juniors next season."

Peasie responded:

"Based on what? It can only be purely guesswork considering most clubs will be waiting to see what their local rivals will be doing. Unless your source is someone at the West Region and those 25 clubs have said to him "we're sticking by the Juniors."
FWIW my own rough figures thinking of who could possibly leave I had it up to about only 22 left."

How many do you think will be left in the West Juniors?

The other issue is that if there are 38 clubs moving from the WRJFA to the WoSFL and 10 clubs move from the SoSFL to the WoSFL we will have 48 clubs in the WoSFL That will be three conferences each with 16 clubs.

A very healthy start for the new league indeed!!!
 

Can any reluctant juniors afford to be left behind?  Will they end up playing some new tribute acts?

Edited February 23, 2020 by Pyramidic

[Bestsinceslicebread]

25 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Think that it is about time this thread got back on track.

I also follow the NLM Forum.  Yesterday Prorege (normally an excellent source) said:

"Hearing today from an informed source that around 25 clubs will remain in the West Juniors next season."

Peasie responded:

"Based on what? It can only be purely guesswork considering most clubs will be waiting to see what their local rivals will be doing. Unless your source is someone at the West Region and those 25 clubs have said to him "we're sticking by the Juniors."
FWIW my own rough figures thinking of who could possibly leave I had it up to about only 22 left."

How many do you think will be left in the West Juniors?

The other issue is that if there are 38 clubs moving from the WRJFA to the WoSFL and 10 clubs move from the SoSFL to the WoSFL we will have 48 clubs in the WoSFL That will be three conferences each with 16 clubs.

A very healthy start for the new league indeed!!!
 

Can any reluctant juniors afford to be left behind.  Will they end up playing some new tribute acts?

Yes right now, everything is speculation.

I'm genuinely expecting, say about 10 west teams, but this really depends on who the West Junior teams are who will be moving and then can see more Junior teams might think, 'no, I'm going if they are going'.
I just want a WOS o start and I genuinely think they first to leave if only about 10 will benefit for the next few years, especially if any teams are from lower down the west region who join a new WOS. If its anywhere near 20 teams from the West then that is major damage for the juniors and if there was anything like you say 48 and 3 conference divisions then its an earlier death nail for the junior association than expected.  I can see the LL announcing the new WOS and all the teams joining and then quite  a few West Region teams contacting the LL to ask to join at the last minute like what happened in the East side a couple of years ago and yeah, there is nothing wrong with the LL and EOS accepting last minute or late entry teams into the West.

 

Also thinking of it, if the LL and EOS know they will have enough teams to start an WOS they need to make a statement informing everyone that a New WOS will definitely start as we all think it will but know there's it nothing concrete to say its starting, if they do this then I think it will accelerate more juniors teams thinking process of not wanting left behind..

Edited February 23, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread