GordonS Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Che Dail said: Yep, like Denmark, Croatia, Wales, Ireland etc Chile is over 2,500 miles long. Nobody wants to go to Punta Arenas on a wet Tuesday night in June. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che Dail Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: Jesus Fucking Christ I wonder if any countries who qualified don't regionalise outside the top 22 clubs? Could it be that it makes no fucking difference at all? Yes, it could all just be just a coincidence. Only one way to find out though eh. Edited February 22, 2020 by Che Dail 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doonhamer1969 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Recap.... How many ERJFA sides are applying for the EoS as it stands now ? Kennoway, Thornton, Rosyth, Kirkcaldy.... Have I missed any ? Lost track ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
never been to scotland Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Just now, Doonhamer1969 said: Recap.... How many ERJFA sides are applying for the EoS as it stands now ? Kennoway, Thornton, Rosyth, Kirkcaldy.... Have I missed any ? Lost track ! Yes, those four are confirmed so far. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Che Dail said: Yes, it could all just be just a coincidence. Only one way to find out though eh. What could be a coincidence? The fact that you can name four countries who've recently qualified for tournaments that regionalise below tier 2 isn't a coincidence at all. In the same way that I could name four South American countries that have qualified for recent world cups isn't a coincidence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pheasant plucker Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 I surrender. Therapy def needed for succumbing to this thread again 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 3 hours ago, Che Dail said: Yep, like Denmark, Croatia, Wales, Ireland etc There are arguments for and against regionalisation, but it's not going to affect our chances to qualify for major tournaments, that's just ludricous. Each country is different. Croatia for example has a very different geography. Due to the shape of the country it's very difficult to get from one side to the other, like getting from Osijek to Split is not exactly an easy journey, combine that with tiny crowds even in their second tier compared to Scotland and it makes sense for them to regionalise earlier. In Wales it's an absolute nightmare to travel between the north and the south, regionalising is just the only way how they can properly operate their football anywhere below the top tier. In Scotland there are better crowds below the top tier and with the exception of some outliers, the vast majority of (semi-)professional clubs are based in/around the central belt. Not comparable to countries like Croatia & Wales at all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che Dail Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: What could be a coincidence? The fact that you can name four countries who've recently qualified for tournaments that regionalise below tier 2 isn't a coincidence at all. In the same way that I could name four South American countries that have qualified for recent world cups isn't a coincidence. There are 5 small countries. 4 qualify for world tournaments, 1 does not. the successful 4 countries structure their league football one way, the unsuccessful country structures it another way, how it's 'aye been'. This could be a coincidence, and the way football is structured could have nothing to do with it, which seems to be your point of view. I beg to differ. There is a reason FIFA promotes the pyramid structure, and it evidently works. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Che Dail said: There are 5 small countries. 4 qualify for world tournaments, 1 does not. the successful 4 countries structure their league football one way, the unsuccessful country structures it another way, how it's 'aye been'. This could be a coincidence, and the way football is structured could have nothing to do with it, which seems to be your point of view. I beg to differ. There is a reason FIFA promotes the pyramid structure, and it evidently works. And Ireland doesn't have a pyramid structure. Just two pro leagues where you've got to be invited/apply to get in. Clearly missed a trick up here with SPL1&2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doonhamer1969 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 24 minutes ago, pheasant plucker said: I surrender. Therapy def needed for succumbing to this thread again 'Just say No' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doonhamer1969 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 26 minutes ago, never been to scotland said: Yes, those four are confirmed so far. Lochore and Lochgelly next.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xnxx Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 So basically you'll be leaving soon anyway? We played Kilwinning today in a friendly and it was great to see their new facility progressing. It looks like a community facility that will be the heart of football development In Kilwinning. I know the future seems uncertain for junior football and many junior clubs, but what I have seen in my short time in junior football is the importance junior clubs have within their respective communities. Irrespective of where each clubs future may be, everyone has responsibility to ensure each club has a future no matter what league they decide their future may be in. In today’s society places where communities can come together young and old, a place where they have a shared passion and togetherness is becoming less and less. In my time in junior football I have found theses club and communities truly inspiring, whatever journey your club takes I hope it’s a successful one and those traditions and that environment for community empowerment isn’t lost. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said: Lochore and Lochgelly next.... Lochgelly have a meeting tomorrow apparently. Then these are coming up if they don't say anything before. 6 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said: Lochore Welfare have their AGM on the 4th March. Newburgh are having a committee meeting on the 25th. I imagine the EoS will have to be a topic of discussion at both meetings. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 15 minutes ago, Che Dail said: There are 5 small countries. 4 qualify for world tournaments, 1 does not. the successful 4 countries structure their league football one way, the unsuccessful country structures it another way, how it's 'aye been'. This could be a coincidence, and the way football is structured could have nothing to do with it, which seems to be your point of view. I beg to differ. There is a reason FIFA promotes the pyramid structure, and it evidently works. In terms of analysis, that is really painful reading. What you'd really need to do is look at all countries, label them by where their league structure brings in regionalisation and then compare how those countries perform, controlling for other factors. Unless you do that, any conclusions you draw are utterly worthless. How many players from the countries you mentioned ever played in their pyramid structures, out of interest? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che Dail Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, GordonS said: It was indeed, one that one serves to throw our failures at international level into sharp relief. A country that could produce the European Cup winner, the European Cup Winners Cup runners-up, a Fairs Cup semi-finalist, several important players at the best clubs in another country and a victory over the World Cup winners on their own patch, all in one season, didn't qualify for the previous World Cup, the following World Cup or the European Championship the following year. Man, is this ever off-topic... It's not entirely off-topic, it is interesting and relevant - because ultimately this whole discussion is about the ongoing enhancement and structuring of the 'non-league' game in Scotland, and the effect it is already having on the leagues above. The 1960s is seen as something as a glory era for Scottish Football. We had world class players, yet the national team did not qualify for world cups. It is the next generation of players that came through and got us to consecutive tournaments in 78, 82, 86, 90. How to explain this? One possible answer is understand what the crop of players from 78-82 were doing in, say, 1967. Well, they were playing lots of football, inspired by their idols. I'm leaning on the principles behind studies in Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything which examines statistical quirks (eg a sudden drop in crime rate in New York) and seeks to attribute them to historical data / socio-economic circumstances / changes in law etc. In 1967 Kenny Dalglish and Joe Jordan were 16; Souness, 14; Hansen, 12; Leighton, 9; Willie Miller, 12; McLeish, 8; Strachan, 10 and so on. What was the environment like when they were growing up and loving football as kids? Inspiring, because of all the top players and great teams to look up to, plus all the success. BUT a key factor was the amount of hours they played as youngsters. There are various empirical studies that have been carried out to back this up. Another environmental factor: there were very few cars on the roads (<1m in ‘67, >3m in 2015) particularly in less affluent areas. This meant that the boys would be kicking a ball around day and night in the street, in the parks, wherever, with their pals. There was a football pitch in every street. They got their 10,000 hours practice* without even realising it before attaining 'genius' level by the time they served the country so well. They learned to improvise themselves, with their pals. Alan Hansen said he was never coached until he signed for Liverpool. *See Malcolm Gladwell (Outliers) and Mathew Syed (Bounce) for reference. Fast forward to 1989: Scotland u16s reached the World Cup final at Hampden, beating a Portugal side in the semi-final containing Luis Figo, Xavier and Paulo Santos. The Scottish players went on to enjoy professional careers and some gained full caps, but the senior national team has not been successful at all. There are other examples in more recent years such as the u21s at Toulon and there’s apparently a good crop of youngsters coming though now according to Eric Black - great. But what club environment can we expect them to thrive in when they become adults and make the transition? Why does our apparent success in youth football not translate into actual success at senior and international level? Well I think it is partly to do with the league structure, and it should change. And I think every club in Scotland has their part to play to help create the next world-class player. Most importantly for me, regionalising it at tier three will free up valuable quality time, and therefore money that can be channeled into more productive things, like training and playing. Time is the most valuable commodity: we need to provide the right platform for kids and elite youth players to dedicate the adequate amount of it to practice for that 10,000 hours. It tends to be structured now rather than organically occurring because there are many different competing priorities on people's time nowadays, and the street environment is not conducive to playing football. Increasing playing time and activity is where more of the focus and rewards for the non-professional clubs should be. By reducing the number of clubs in the professional game to 26? (12+14), you focus best v best at the elite level: GOOD. By regionalising the structure at Tier 3 you free up TIME for every single club and player, and change the focus from solely being a team your town supports, to a club that supports your town and the people in it. The balance shifts towards your club increasing participation, and away from the cut-throat nature of the 10 v10 league set up we currently have. To use that fabled trip to Elgin from the central belt - it has to be paid for by every club in time and in money. Lets say that is 12 hours per person, of which only 2 are spent playing football, plus warm up and cool down. 18 players + 5 coaching staff @£8 per hour ave(?) = £2208, plus the cost of transport, meals and possibly accommodation. Add in the money spent by supporters, and of course the carbon footprint : an expensive day, twice a season. Every club has a budget: a finite amount of money, it is scarce and valuable. That trip, be it to Stranraer, Brechin, Peterhead, Berwick, Annan etc from the opposite end of the country is disproportionately expensive for small clubs, and over the course of a season I just think the resources would be better utilised on the training ground, and cash invested in facilities instead. Money has been invested in facilities in Scotland over the past decade or so and the number of qualified coaches has increased - but this will only get us so far because other countries are doing exactly the same – see Holland / Iceland / Nordic region for example where the number of full size 3G pitches and quality indoor facilities per head of population is higher than ours . There are a lot of good things happening in Scotland, but we must improve the transition from successful youth structure (performance schools, pro-club academies etc) to senior football – we've not done it well enough over the last 20-30 years and the national team has suffered. I think converting T3 to regional would serve development of young players better than the current set-up: more time training, and more opportunities to play at a competitive level where the fear of relegation / financial pressure for promotion is less stark. And that’s all I’ve got to say about that. Edited February 22, 2020 by Che Dail 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che Dail Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 24 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: And Ireland doesn't have a pyramid structure. Just two pro leagues where you've got to be invited/apply to get in. No promotion but it is still a pyramid structure - 2 professional leagues then 4 regions below it - it's a triangular shape. Seems odd there's no movement between leagues right enough but then better or weaker players are free to move. Point is there are far fewer clubs in the 'pro' structure 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che Dail Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 19 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: In terms of analysis, that is really painful reading. What you'd really need to do is look at all countries, label them by where their league structure brings in regionalisation and then compare how those countries perform, controlling for other factors. Unless you do that, any conclusions you draw are utterly worthless. How many players from the countries you mentioned ever played in their pyramid structures, out of interest? I was trying to keep it simple for you: Look at success, and copy it. Failure / Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results each time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 First point: the league's responsibility is only to the clubs, not to produce players for the national team. Second point: arguing that the national team is underachieving because Elgin play in the national divisions is madness. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, Che Dail said: There are 5 small countries. 4 qualify for world tournaments, 1 does not. the successful 4 countries structure their league football one way, the unsuccessful country structures it another way, how it's 'aye been'. This could be a coincidence, and the way football is structured could have nothing to do with it, which seems to be your point of view. I beg to differ. There is a reason FIFA promotes the pyramid structure, and it evidently works. Why is national team performance a barometer of the club league structure ? Why not attendances.( which fwiw, Albion rovers who have the lowest attendances in the spfl would be the 22nd largest club in your new found love for the croation league) Clyde would be just just outside the top 10. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che Dail Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 minute ago, parsforlife said: Why is national team performance a barometer of the club league structure ? Why not attendances.( which fwiw, Albion rovers who have the lowest attendances in the spfl would be the 22nd largest club in your new found love for the croation league) Clyde would be just just outside the top 10. Some East of Scotland and Lowland League clubs have 3 times as many PLAYERS than Albion Rovers average attendance. Maybe all the Croatians are playing rather than watching their equivalent local team, and that's why they're better at the game than us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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