Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

Anyway, 6 weeks today the transfer window to the EoS (& probably WoS) will - and I'll go all Sky Sports News with this - SLAMS SHUT!

Edited February 18, 2020 by Burnie_man

[Doonhamer1969]

15 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

I know, although there is a stronger argument for smaller numbers in the top leagues (in a small country) to ensure that more games are ar the 'elite' level.

But tbh Hearts v Hamilton and Kilmarnock 4 times a season... and draw them in a cup... just not very good for fans.

Anyway, no harm in floating ideas and 'high-level thinking' which is important (or simple fantasy as you put it) - plus it breaks the tedium of the ongoing detailed discussions which tend to round in circles. 

Immediate focus should be on forming the WoS and getting on with that, fair enough. 

Agree re 4 times per season, make the leagues 14 or 16 to get rid of that.

Daily Recordo this morning, Celtic will have played all the other current top 5 teams twice away and once at home by game 33 if the top six stays the same until then.

Means they are due 5 home games post split to get 2 home-2 away against those teams.

Which means they'd get 21 home, 17 away, which obviously isn't going to happen.

Exposes the nonsense of a split after an odd number of games.

OK, its only happened once in 20 years, but it CAN happen ,and may happen in the next few weeks.

[Doonhamer1969]

Just now, Doonhamer1969 said:

Agree re 4 times per season, make the leagues 14 or 16 to get rid of that.

Daily Recordo this morning, Celtic will have played all the other current top 5 teams twice away and once at home by game 33 if the top six stays the same until then.

Means they are due 5 home games post split to get 2 home-2 away against those teams.

Which means they'd get 21 home, 17 away, which obviously isn't going to happen.

Exposes the nonsense of a split after an odd number of games.

OK, its only happened once in 20 years, but it CAN happen ,and may happen in the next few weeks.

PS its all pesky Livi's fault for finishing higher than they were supposed to

[AsimButtHitsASix]

21 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Yes.

Or possibly even expand the South league to cover the entire south of the country, including, say South Ayrshire, Borders etc, then it would be a better standard as a stand alone Tier 6 league 

(Then with regional leagues below it at Tier 7 obviously)

I was trying, right at the start of this thread, to work out how to do a 4 way split (N/S/E/W) that kept populations as close to equal as possible. The only way to do so was for the "South" to include Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and Dumfries and Galloway as the South. I'd actually be ok with that. A southern premier with the three regional leagues below isnae the worst idea (but I doubt Rutherglen and Wishaw would see themselves as SoS)

[Jack Burton]

Doubtful whether any full time teams would drop to Tier 3.
26-28 in the top 2 tiers, there are currently only 22 full time teams in Scotland, plus hybrid Airdrie.

Airdrie finished 5th and 7th in tier 3 the last two seasons. Dunfermline finished 7th in tier 3 a few seasons ago too.

[Doonhamer1969]

43 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

My worry is that if we dont have a regionalised league at tier 6 we face the very real prospect that some clubs may block progress for others by refusing promotion etc, best way around this is to make the top 3 eligible for promotion from the proposed regional conferences if licensed and the winners are not.

Yes.

[Doonhamer1969]

5 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I was trying, right at the start of this thread, to work out how to do a 4 way split (N/S/E/W) that kept populations as close to equal as possible. The only way to do so was for the "South" to include Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and Dumfries and Galloway as the South. I'd actually be ok with that. A southern premier with the three regional leagues below isnae the worst idea (but I doubt Rutherglen and Wishaw would see themselves as SoS)

I didn't see that post, but yes, that would even things up.

Needn't go up as far as Rutherglen !

If you look at the South Scottish Parliament region, minus East Lothian and the south of Midlothian, that could be a rough basis for it.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

On ‎24‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 16:53, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Final attempt was a North/South/East/West split...



As we've already seen with the SoS league having possible parity with a West league (and the EoS) it seems a right sham considering their population. But just dropping Lanarkshire and Ayrshire into the south...



(Borders is supposed to be Orange in that map at the end. Apologies for that f**k up)

A geographic split which is equal on both population and area. Travel is fairly straight forward for all (apart from Fort William as always) and a few Tayside clubs might be huffy about trips North but, f**k 'em, such is life.

Also these areas can be split further geographically at lower tiers (Ayrshire/Lanarkshire/D&G for south, North/South for East and the same kinda split for North)

Go on, admit it, it's a beezer of a set up.

Right. I've wasted the last hour of work. You can all get back to arguing about crowds and 100k toilets.

 

Just now, Doonhamer1969 said:

I didn't see that post, but yes, that would even things up.

Needn't go up as far as Rutherglen !

If you look at the South Scottish Parliament region, minus East Lothian and the south of Midlothian, that could be a rough basis for it.

I went by council areas (I thought 32 was a good number to split) and I buggered up the map with the Borders who, I think, added to the South to make it more equal but the population's small enough it can stay East as well without making anything too lopsided.

[Doonhamer1969]

5 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

Airdrie finished 5th and 7th in tier 3 the last two seasons. Dunfermline finished 7th in tier 3 a few seasons ago too.

OK, you may get the odd one now and again, but generally vast majority would be in the top two tiers, with room for the best 5-6 part time clubs if the top two tiers were expanded to 12-14 teams.

[FairWeatherFan]

45 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

That's a good argument for having less cups.

The SoS has been on the go for 74 years, long may it continue.

Clubs from here shouldn't have to go to the Central Belt in order to play football.

It's survived with a little as , I think, 8 teams before ( Threave, St Cuth, Tarff, W&B, Creetown, Newton S, Dalb Star and Girvan)  in the 80's ,so it will go on.

I don't have anything against the SoS by any means and I'm sure it will continue. Of those 8 clubs that kept it going. One has folded, one left never likely to return. Another two have had stints away to other leagues.

Nowadays the focus has changed to league football over cups and it looks like the SOS has peaked in terms of offering a 30 game season without repetition. 

 

[Che Dail]

17 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Anyway, 6 weeks today the transfer window to the EoS (& probably WoS) will - and I'll go all Sky Sports News with this - SLAMS SHUT!

The window might slam shut... but I wonder if folk can still sneak in the back door later on eh? 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 minute ago, gogsy said:

Wonder what the big team of all those Talbot supporters is , because that sounds like the supporters of a SPFL team on a smaller scale.

Talbot fans will be raging that you don't class Talbot as the big team

[Che Dail]

20 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Agree re 4 times per season, make the leagues 14 or 16 to get rid of that.

Daily Recordo this morning, Celtic will have played all the other current top 5 teams twice away and once at home by game 33 if the top six stays the same until then.

Means they are due 5 home games post split to get 2 home-2 away against those teams.

Which means they'd get 21 home, 17 away, which obviously isn't going to happen.

Exposes the nonsense of a split after an odd number of games.

OK, its only happened once in 20 years, but it CAN happen ,and may happen in the next few weeks.

Awww now... that mythical, hypothetical 21 home games and only17 away! IT'S RIGGED!

Send them to Elgin a couple of times for punishment?

[Doonhamer1969]

1 hour ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

 

I went by council areas (I thought 32 was a good number to split) and I buggered up the map with the Borders who, I think, added to the South to make it more equal but the population's small enough it can stay East as well without making anything too lopsided.

Spot on population wise, except North Ayrshire and N Lanark may object !

Anyway, that is roughly what I was getting at to keep the SoS at Tier 6.

The whole pyramid process so far has been piecemeal, needs looked at Scotland -wide.

We've now have the farcical situation where 17 clubs in the north-north east (HL) are due 0.5 promotion play off places to the SPFL and 70 clubs in the south are chasing the same 0.5 places, with that number to increase with the WoS coming on stream. Could be over 100 by this August ?

So the whole thing needs rejigged, and your map might be a good starting point.

I tried to split it up by numbers, 221 clubs , 133 juniors and 88 seniors.

It didn't fall easily into a neat 4 way split, factoring for 14 or 16 team leagues, but it wasn't far away.

A few amateur sides coming in for a 232 total breaks into 4 58 team geographical areas, 4 leagues each, 16-14-14-14.

Perfect if it can work on a geographical - local authority split basis !

Edited February 18, 2020 by Doonhamer1969

[Doonhamer1969]

9 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Awww now... that mythical, hypothetical 21 home games and only17 away! IT'S RIGGED!

Send them to Elgin a couple of times for punishment?

Ross County !

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

10 team leagues are dull - SPL1 and SPL2 clubs playing each other 4 times a season... what for?

I think:

T1=12;

T2 =14 (or 16) Full time professional clubs: 26 best v best 

then

T3 = 64 Licensed part-time and semi-pro clubs split regionally: 32 HL (16 north & 16 South) and 32 LL (16 west & 16 East) 

Then several regional semi-pro / amateur clubs below that, in order:  A pyramid.

In terms of the financial split - Last season a £23.7m pot was shared among 42 professional clubs - that needn't change.  The top 26 received £22.8m, leaving the remaining 16 with just short of £1m.   In my proposal, that translates as £500k to HL and £500k to LL clubs, at Tier 3. 

Those clubs are then in 16 team leagues all with opportunity to go up, and fluid movement down.  Still a sizeable financial incentive to finish high up the league, however they decide to allocate the prize money (incrementally, from top to bottom, or top 6, whatever suits). 

In terms of 'Status', this is down to how T3 is marketed and presented and commercialized.

So to illustrate, The LL at T3 could look like:

West

Dumbarton

Clyde

Stranraer

Stirling Albion

Annan

Queen’s Park

Albion Rovers

BSC Glasgow

Caley Braves

Cumbernauld Colts

University of Stirling

Gretna

(Clydebank)

(Kilwinning)

(Pollok)

(Auchinleck)

 

East: 

Edinburgh City

Stenhousemuir

Cowdenbeath

Kelty Hearts

Bonnyrigg Rose

East Stirlingshire

Civil Service Strollers

The Spartans

Berwick Rangers

Gala Fairydean Rovers

Vale of Leithen

Edinburgh University

Bo’ness United

Broxburn Athletic

Penicuik Athletic

Linlithgow Rose

 

I think that's decent.  (currently) unlicensed clubs in brackets.

Surely OFF TOPIC. However, the present SPFL structure exists at 4 tiers, because the clubs wanted (and voted for) this set up. As I understand it, the part time SPFL clubs in particular, want to retain promotion & relegation opportunities between the 2 lower divisions, each season. These clubs also have the chance to gain promotion to the Championship, and have the opportunity to play against full time clubs for a season, or for a few more........whether good or bad in the short/long term

It is not for us who support senior or junior clubs below the SPFL, to tell the Scottish league clubs, how they should (re)organise their structure at Tiers 1 to 4, just so that their format suits us.  This forum is however about proposed changes in the pyramid structure (at Tiers 5 & 6 and below), and the future of the juniors within it.... or outside it.... or both.  

The next six weeks should provide plenty of interest, emotion, and diverse views, without concerning ourselves about the SPFL's future.

[Doonhamer1969]

2 hours ago, TFW said:

Talbot have a fanbase all over East Ayrshire, not just in the Metropolis itself. It also has a good number of fans who regularly travel up from Dumfries and Galloway. There's a fairly healthy Dalbeattie Branch (I went with them to Tynecastle last season) and I know of at least 5 regular supporters from Dumfries. Travelling north you have me in Thornhill, a small number in Sanquhar, ditto Kirkconnel. Sizeable support live in Cumnock as well. North and West of the village, Coylton, Annbank, Mauchline and up to Kilmarnock you'll find Talbot fans in good numbers, Take in our diaspora globally..... 

There's a lot of ex Ayrshire folks living in D&G, doesn't surprise me there's a few Talbot fans.

[andy25]

Talbot are their big team....

Wonder what the big team of all those Talbot supporters is , because that sounds like the supporters of a SPFL team on a smaller scale.

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

Surely OFF TOPIC. However, the present SPFL structure exists at 4 tiers, because the clubs wanted (and voted for) this set up. As I understand it, the part time SPFL clubs in particular, want to retain promotion & relegation opportunities between the 2 lower divisions, each season. These clubs also have the chance to gain promotion to the Championship, and have the opportunity to play against full time clubs for a season, or for a few more........whether good or bad in the short/long term

It is not for us who support senior or junior clubs below the SPFL, to tell the Scottish league clubs, how they should (re)organise their structure at Tiers 1 to 4, just so that their format suits us.  This forum is however about proposed changes in the pyramid structure (at Tiers 5 & 6 and below), and the future of the juniors within it.... or outside it.... or both.  

The next six weeks should provide plenty of interest, emotion, and diverse views, without concerning ourselves about the SPFL's future.

Well, as I pointed out to Burnie it is on topic, because it illustrates a potential future for Junior clubs, which is the main subject of the thread.

There shouldn't be an 'us' (non-league) and 'them' (professional league) - the conversation about the future of Scottish Football should be democratic and open to all, and so should decision making.

And there's a difference between having an opinion & ideas, and telling someone what to do.

And I support Hearts btw (my big team).

I agree though about reverting to the WoS chat...

Edited February 18, 2020 by Che Dail

[Dev]

49 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Spot on population wise, except North Ayrshire and N Lanark may object !

Anyway, that is roughly what I was getting at to keep the SoS at Tier 6.

The whole pyramid process so far has been piecemeal, needs looked at Scotland twice.

We've now have the farcical situation where 17 clubs in the north-north east (HL) are due 0.5 promotion play off places to the SPFL and 70 clubs in the south are chasing the same 0.5 places, with that number to increase with the WoS coming on stream. Could be over 100 by this August ?

So the whole thing needs rejigged, and your map might be a good starting point.

I tried to split it up by numbers, 221 clubs , 133 juniors and 88 seniors.

It didn't fall easily into a neat 4 way split, factoring for 14 or 16 team leagues, but it wasn't far away.

A few amateur sides coming in for a 232 total breaks into 4 58 team geographical areas, 4 leagues each, 16-14-14-14.

Perfect if it can work on a geographical - local authority split basis !

Some consider that the SoS isn't strong enough for Tier 6 e.g. at the end of the season it's not going to be won by a licenced club or that its' champions are licenced but are too weak to win a play-off to the Lowland League.

If that is the case, say, nine times out of ten, what does it matter? They won't be stopping clubs from the EoS or the new WoS from winning promotion will they  and, if they did, then there is a just case for saying that the club they beat wasn't good enough!

What the SoS does is to provide opportunity for clubs, and referees, and coaches, etc etc from its' area to progress e.g. clubs to the Lowland League (if they can/if they wish to). It also provides a platform for local clubs to play at a reasonable level and gain an SFA club licence - if they wish to and if they can raise the funds. If clubs from this area are sufficiently well run so that they can achieve licenced status they can't be that bad!

In any case why take this away from clubs located at the extremities of the country? There's no need. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Dev
Up-dated