Junior football, what is the future?

[Che Dail]

33 minutes ago, Junior Pub League said:

Hopefully attitudes like yours wont be in the majority and clubs will move on and progress. Clubs who have no ambition can stay in the Junior welfare leagues, no one will force them to be progress. Instead they can stay, wither and die. Like the grade.

Less than 3% of the population went to the theatre last night - should we shut down all of the theatres in the UK because you think they are unsustainable. You've got nothing but a laughable strawman argument that has repeatedly been shown to  be mince.

You're completely missing my point.

I'm not advocating anyone stays in the junior leagues, not for a minute - I think the 'grade' as a national entity should disband now.

ALL clubs should be able to move up and progress - why would regionalising the structure at T3 prevent this? 

My point is that the likes of Auchinleck and Linlithgow probably SHOULD be at T3, just not in a national league. 

At the moment clubs are spending out with their means, it doesn't add up - this is a fact, not just my opinion.

Unsustainable:

Raith:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fifetoday.co.uk/sport/football/raith-rovers-finances-not-sustainable-club-report-substantial-six-figure-loss-992493%3famp

Cowdenbeath:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/jim-spence/619174/jim-spence-hopefully-enough-people-still-care-to-save-cowdenbeath/amp/

Berwick:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/sport/football/berwick-rangers-set-record-significant-losses-agm-1321334%3famp

Brechin:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/51066521

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Che Dail

[FairWeatherFan]

39 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

As I said, reserve teams are unlikely to be considered for WoS. I don't think the SoS will change that much next season, I just can't see the WoS taking all their best clubs and leaving the SoS to flounder, the LL, EoS and SoS need to work together to get this to work.

Hence "geographical integrity".

I'm not talking about the WoS taking reserves.

I'm talking about Stranraer looking good to get relegated and having to cut costs, so might pull their reserves.

Caledonian Braves having the WOSFL as their nominated league for relegation from now on. So shift their focus from the SoS and could pull their reserves at any time going forward.

Wigtown & Bladnoch have had to sit out a season already recently. Currently at risk of losing their SFA licence due to a lack of floodlights.

With the creation of a WOSFL you also lose the ability to attract new clubs. Then coming down the way you've only got Dalbeattie and Gretna 2008. One of which has never played in the SoS and the other has seen their first team move to other leagues twice in the last 20 years. Both could be advocating for relegation to the WOSFL.

You have to look at the long term stability of the league beyond simply losing existing clubs to another league.

[Dev]

Follow-ons from a notorious recent newspaper article supported by Gordon Robertson: See Twitter on NLS.

 

 

 

 

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Rosyth FC

 

@Rosyth_FC

 

Very interesting read, but whoever is the writer on such a piece might want to look further afield to Fife perhaps, to see the dwindling in crowds, and more seriously in revenue. With most Fife teams now in the EoS set-up and teams like Oakley, crossgates and HOB all thriving.

 

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David Severs

 

@OnHandHandyman

· 22h

Blackburn Utd Pollok Creetown Rosyth Cumnock Stonehaven Dalbeattie Star Wishaw Juniors Haddington Ath Orkney Spartans Hurlford Utd & all the other 200+ non league clubs survive with fantastic committees, helpers, supporters & sponsors. More & better media needed though https://twitter.com/GordRobertson/status/1228989749714616320…

10:32 am · 18 Feb 2020·Twitter for iPhone

[Gordon EF]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

You're completely missing my point.

I'm not advocating anyone stays in the junior leagues, not for a minute - I think the 'grade' as a national entity should disband now.

ALL clubs should be able to move up and progress - why would regionalising the structure at T3 prevent this? 

My point is that the likes of Auchinleck and Linlithgow probably SHOULD be at T3, just not in a national league. 

At the moment clubs are spending out with their means, it doesn't add up - this is a fact, not just my opinion.

Unsustainable:

Raith:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fifetoday.co.uk/sport/football/raith-rovers-finances-not-sustainable-club-report-substantial-six-figure-loss-992493%3famp

Cowdenbeath:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/jim-spence/619174/jim-spence-hopefully-enough-people-still-care-to-save-cowdenbeath/amp/

Berwick:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/sport/football/berwick-rangers-set-record-significant-losses-agm-1321334%3famp

Brechin:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/51066521

 

Is this something we see only or more often among the twenty clubs at tiers 3 and 4 in Scotland though? You'll find Scottish clubs at tiers 1 and 2 who overspend, you'll find examples of Scottish clubs lower down the structure overspending or junior clubs who do. You'll find clubs all up and down the league structure in England (and every other country) who do it.

Without proving this is something we see significantly more of among semi-proffesional clubs in national leagues in Scotland because of the league structure they're in, then a few random examples that you think seem to prove your point are absolutely meaningless.

Also, does anyon beleive that Raith Rovers wouldn't have overspent if they'd gone into a regionalised 'League 1 North' instead of a national League 1? If anything, it might even lead to larger losses. The idea that these clubs would say 'Ah well, we're in a regional league now, better cut the cloth accordingly' is utterly deluded.

[Dev]

6 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Is it expected that there will be applications from reserve teams higher up the pyramid, or is there a rule that would prevent it?

In a recent post Born To Run stated that Reserve teams wouldn't be accepted.

[Doonhamer1969]

35 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Not a single one of them would finish above Largs or any of the other Junior teams.

Still not answering how many SoS games you'e been to.

We can all therefore assume it's hee haw, a big fat zero.

You're visceral hatred of the SoS knows no bounds, based on zero first hand knowledge. 

[Burnie_man]

I'm not talking about the WoS taking reserves.
I'm talking about Stranraer looking good to get relegated and having to cut costs, so might pull their reserves.
Caledonian Braves having the WOSFL as their nominated league for relegation from now on. So shift their focus from the SoS and could pull their reserves at any time going forward.
Wigtown & Bladnoch have had to sit out a season already recently. Currently at risk of losing their SFA licence due to a lack of floodlights.
With the creation of a WOSFL you also lose the ability to attract new clubs. Then coming down the way you've only got Dalbeattie and Gretna 2008. One of which has never played in the SoS and the other has seen their first team move to other leagues twice in the last 20 years. Both could be advocating for relegation to the WOSFL.
You have to look at the long term stability of the league beyond simply losing existing clubs to another league.

Not sure as to your point exactly. The LL aren't looking to weaken the SoS, they just want to set up a WoS League.

If SoS clubs apply, then my guess is they may not be accepted as by doing so weakens the SoS.

However the possibility does exist that if the majority apply, then some sort of negotiation will need to take place between leagues and clubs.

[GNU_Linux]

Not sure as to your point exactly. The LL aren't looking to weaken the SoS, they just want to set up a WoS League.

If SoS clubs apply, then my guess is they may not be accepted as by doing so weakens the SoS.

However the possibility does exist that if the majority apply, then some sort of negotiation will need to take place between leagues and clubs.

The LL/EOS wouldn't want to damage relations with the SOS which aren't the best at the moment due to disagreements in regards to PWG proceedings. That plus geography makes those clubs being accepted a non-starter imo (Bonnyton being the exception).

[Junior Pub League]

30 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

You're completely missing my point.

I'm not advocating anyone stays in the junior leagues, not for a minute - I think the 'grade' as a national entity should disband now.

ALL clubs should be able to move up and progress - why would regionalising the structure at T3 prevent this? 

My point is that the likes of Auchinleck and Linlithgow probably SHOULD be at T3, just not in a national league. 

At the moment clubs are spending out with their means, it doesn't add up - this is a fact, not just my opinion.

I'm not missing your point at all - you want the SPFL to take massive steps backwards by having half of it reduced in status to a regional competition so pub league teams like Auchinleck don't have to make a mythical trip to Elgin.

More clubs in the Juniors have folded, in regional leagues, over the past 50 years than national league teams. So I guess factually far more teams in regional pub leagues were spending out with their means.

Regionalisation of a national league solves nothing.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Junior Pub League

[Burnie_man]

The LL/EOS wouldn't want to damage relations with the SOS which aren't the best at the moment due to disagreements in regards to PWG proceedings. That plus geography makes those clubs being accepted a non-starter imo (Bonnyton being the exception).

That's my view. Of course, if the majority of clubs want to hook up with the WoS at some point they can pass it at AGM and then discuss with WoS how to do it.

They may need to sit tight for a season or so though. We'll see, this could all be just nonsense.

[Junior Pub League]

23 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Is this something we see only or more often among the twenty clubs at tiers 3 and 4 in Scotland though? You'll find Scottish clubs at tiers 1 and 2 who overspend, you'll find examples of Scottish clubs lower down the structure overspending or junior clubs who do. You'll find clubs all up and down the league structure in England (and every other country) who do it.

Without proving this is something we see significantly more of among semi-proffesional clubs in national leagues in Scotland because of the league structure they're in, then a few random examples that you think seem to prove your point are absolutely meaningless.

Also, does anyon beleive that Raith Rovers wouldn't have overspent if they'd gone into a regionalised 'League 1 North' instead of a national League 1? If anything, it might even lead to larger losses. The idea that these clubs would say 'Ah well, we're in a regional league now, better cut the cloth accordingly' is utterly deluded.

Ballingry overspent.

Went bust.

Death of a junior club.

Played in a regional league.

He's making a strawman argument that has no basis and its quite funny when you know the agenda he's trying push.

[Gordon EF]

Just now, Junior Pub League said:

Ballingry overspent.

Went bust.

Death of a junior club.

Played in a regional league.

He's making a strawman argument that has no basis and its quite funny when you know the agenda he's trying push.

Oh I've no doubt all these arguments are coming out because of a particular agenda but some of these idiotic points are bafflingly persitant.

The league structure, particularly at the sort of "top of the semi-proffesional game" is absolutely not there as a primary driver for producing top players, improving the national team or helping Scottish clubs be more competitive in European competition. It's such an utterly inane thing to think. You can pull all sorts of examples of countries who do things completely differently in terms of league structure, some of which ar succesful, some of which aren't.

Uruguay, a country with a smaller population than Scotland has 16 teams in the Premier division, some of which are semi-proffesional and cannot even host games against the bigger teams at their own grounds. And their national team has had incredible success for a country their size. Is that an argument for a 16 team premier league in any way? No.

The league structure is primarly about creating an entertaining and meangiful competition with sporting integrity that allows clubs to progress and find their own level in their own way.

[Doonhamer1969]

30 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Is this something we see only or more often among the twenty clubs at tiers 3 and 4 in Scotland though? You'll find Scottish clubs at tiers 1 and 2 who overspend, you'll find examples of Scottish clubs lower down the structure overspending or junior clubs who do. You'll find clubs all up and down the league structure in England (and every other country) who do it.

Without proving this is something we see significantly more of among semi-proffesional clubs in national leagues in Scotland because of the league structure they're in, then a few random examples that you think seem to prove your point are absolutely meaningless.

Also, does anyon beleive that Raith Rovers wouldn't have overspent if they'd gone into a regionalised 'League 1 North' instead of a national League 1? If anything, it might even lead to larger losses. The idea that these clubs would say 'Ah well, we're in a regional league now, better cut the cloth accordingly' is utterly deluded.

I'm not seeing much difference between League One North, Tier 3 , promoting into the Championship, with less travelling time/ costs, and League One,Tier 3 promoting into the Championship, with more travelling /time costs, other than......

Less costs for clubs.

There's not a massive quality difference between Raith and Brechin, or Airdrie and Albion Rovers, so putting those 20 clubs at the same tier wouldnt lead to cricket scores.

[tell_me_more]

17 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

Tbf saying to a sponsor "We Play in the 6th Tier of Scottish Football and play in the Scottish Cup every season" is far more appealing that "We are a junior team, but you see that's just in reference to the level of football not the age of the players, but wez are bigger than senior teams I promise."

But they don't all play in the Scottish Cup so your argument is out the window.

[Marshmallo]

29 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Still not answering how many SoS games you'e been to.

We can all therefore assume it's hee haw, a big fat zero.

You're visceral hatred of the SoS knows no bounds, based on zero first hand knowledge. 

Do you disagree?

[Doonhamer1969]

Just now, Doonhamer1969 said:

I'm not seeing much difference between League One North, Tier 3 , promoting into the Championship, with less travelling time/ costs, and League One,Tier 3 promoting into the Championship, with more travelling /time costs, other than......

Less costs for clubs.

There's not a massive quality difference between Raith and Brechin, or Airdrie and Albion Rovers, so putting those 20 clubs at the same tier wouldnt lead to cricket scores.

Ps 42 clubs across 4 tiers is nonsense, should be 3 tiers.

[FairWeatherFan]

28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Not sure as to your point exactly. The LL aren't looking to weaken the SoS, they just want to set up a WoS League.

If SoS clubs apply, then my guess is they may not be accepted as by doing so weakens the SoS.

However the possibility does exist that if the majority apply, then some sort of negotiation will need to take place between leagues and clubs.

The point is that the WOSFL weakens the SoS by default. That's why there might be clubs looking to join the WOSFL now rather than become be part of a rump leak that gets weaker year on year.

They're only 13 real clubs now as it is.

[Che Dail]

27 minutes ago, Junior Pub League said:

I'm not missing your point at all - you want the SPFL to take massive steps backwards by having half of it reduced in status to a regional competition so pub league teams like Auchinleck don't have to make a mythical trip to Elgin.

More clubs in the Juniors have folded, in regional leagues, over the past 50 years than national league teams. So I guess factually far more teams in regional pub leagues were spending out with their means.

Regionalisation of a national league solves nothing.

You do know that Elgin is a place, it exists. Therefore, a trip there by a club will actually occur. So it is not mythical, it is an event that will happen.

[Mediocre Pundit]

The only restructuring the SPFL should do is to turn 3x10 into 2x16. Add the two non-League champions for a season to increase the numbers. And work something out to resolve the loss of 3 home games (which could be as simple as a 2 year funding transition package, as under the new structure the season will differ so costs can come down accordingly)

16 team leagues work well in non-League; 10 is dull in League.

Would also be great if they could bring it in for next season and save us from relegation...

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

You do know that Elgin is a place, it exists. Therefore, a trip there by a club will actually occur. So it is not mythical, it is an event that will happen.

Hypothetical then

Even if the hypothetical does exist any club that can afford to pay their players should not have the gall to complain about a coupla of longish journeys a season