Junior football, what is the future?

[Marshmallo]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I don't think reserve teams are going to be encouraged/accepted, perhaps when things settle down and there are lower tiers to join.

Any existing reserve teams should be emptied as well in that case.

[Che Dail]

Just now, Marshmallo said:

How do you know it does? You've made a claim, the onus is on you to back it up. Correlation =/= causation.

I have serious doubts that Elgin moving into a structure that sees them having to travel no further south than Forfar will see them developing players who ascend to the heady heights of Celta Vigo, but if you can show me a regression test which indicates this is statistically significant then more power to you.

Well I pointed to Denmark previously, and now someone else referred to Croatia where the football structure also seems to work.

FIFA promotes (insists upon) the pyramid concept - write to them for evidence as to why this is.  Most other countries have one in their domestic football,with emphasis on grassroots.  We have a column, and our national team is shite. 

What is a regression test? 

Why even debate Forfar and Elgin? They're not significant in the great scheme of things and in my opinion do not really gain anything by playing in a national league.

The league structure is populated by clubs trading insolvent, and dominated by self-interest with nostalgia for a bygone age. 

I think it should be trimmed down and de-centralised - too much waste. 

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Any existing reserve teams should be emptied as well in that case.

The LL don't have the power to tell other leagues what to do.

[the rambler]

49 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

The sensible thing to do if the Dumfries clubs join is to have regional conferences, the southern could be the Dumfries clubs, Glenafton, Girvan, Kello, Talbot, Maybole, Craigmark and Lugar, giving an attractive conference of 12 very local teams in a local league. I believe this was one of the main concerns for some of the folks on here, an ideal solution.

I am pretty sure that the supporters of Glenafton and Talbot wouldn't find this League to be attractive. 

[Ross.]

19 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

And being sarcastic is the right way?

Absolutely not, but I think the structure of the league set up has a lot less to do with the players we develop than things like facilities, coaching standards and the number of people who actively play sports.

Switzerland have been outperforming their population size for the best part of the last decade. Facilities here are far greater in number not to mention better in standard, and relatively cheaper to hire than back home. Coaching I cannot comment on as I have never really been involved in that but if it's like anything else here, you won't get near that position unless you are qualified to the correct level. As for numbers playing, football probably just about edges it as the main sport, though Ice Hockey is close and Winter sports in general have huge numbers. Most kids will grow up playing a few different things regularly(the missus nephews for example play football, handball and go skiing through the winter, a few other folk I know have kids who play football, handball, basketball and ice hockey at organised levels). I think the multi discipline aspect of it has a bug impact on things. It is maybe not specific to one sport but you are learning things that can cross over and be useful.

FWIW the Swiss league is regionalised below tier 3, sort of. It's a slightly confusing set up which goes Super League(Tier 1), Challenge League(Tier 2), Promotion League(Tier 3), 1. Liga is the start of the 4th tier, there are 3 leagues which are loosely regionalised but have a few anomolies, and below that there are a few other similar leagues at tier 4, though some are steadfast in the regionalisation, Then tier 5 is a mix of regionalised and semi regionalised leagues, then tiers 6 and 7 which are entirely regionalised. All are organised by the SFL and pretty much anyone can go from bottom to top provided they are good enough and have the facilities. Not uncommon here also for bigger teams to go bankrupt and be kicked out of the top league, only to reform and start again in the lower levels. Lausanne, Servette and Neuchatel have all done that in the last decade. They tend to put those teams in at tier 4 initially because there is no point in starting them lower and letting full time professionals play against guys who turn up half cut from the Friday night...

ETA: It's also not uncommon for teams to have more than one side in the pyramid. Most top league sides have 2nd and 3rd teams in at tier 3 and below. Even the wee towns and village sides will have more than one team. Only stipulation there is that the teams cannot play in the same league and the 2nd/3rd/4th team cannot move above tier 3. This of course means players who aren't good enough to make it at the top can keep playing regularly at their own level, but also means the younger players are getting games against physically mature guys at a young age in an organised set up, which helps their development no end.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Ross.

[edinabear]

3 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Is it expected that there will be applications from reserve teams higher up the pyramid, or is there a rule that would prevent it?

Hibs reserves were in the EofS a few years ago so would assume it is open to the Old Firm or any other teams for that matter.

[Dunning1874]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

Croatia ranked 6th in the world, regularly qualify for world cup and european champs

Population 4 million.

League Structure: T1=10, T2=14, T3= 3 regional leagues of 16.  Just copy this(?)

Players at: Liverpool, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Celta Vigo, Wolfsburg

We've got Andy Robertson.

The  league structure serves underperforming clubs and not the actual game, where the national team has been woeful for 20 yrs

The idea that the results of national teams are significantly influenced one way or the other by the structure of tiers 3-5 in their respective domestic leagues is a bit daft.

The comparisons with the likes of Spain and Germany seem to miss the point that larger countries are larger. Saying 'these countries are bigger and footballing powerhouses but they regionalise sooner so surely a smaller less successful country like us should too' misses the point that playing nationally is easier in a smaller country. It's feasible for a club with an average attendance of around 500 to play nationally in Scotland in a way that it isn't in Spain, and more often than not clubs playing nationally in Scotland will be travelling shorter distances even compared to Spain's regional Segunda B anyway.

As for the Croatia comparison which at least compares us with a country with a similar population, not that we don't have our own geographic challenges but you have to consider the distances needed to traverse Croatia considering the shape of it. As the crow flies the distance from Split to Osijek is similar to the distance between Stranraer and Inverness, but the most direct route by road covers about the same distance as Inverness to Rhyl or Glasgow to Southampton. There's therefore a greater need to regionalise sooner in Croatia, and even at that the average attendance in their national second tier is consistently below 500.

That takes us to the more pertinent point than geography, as there are clubs as small as any we have playing nationally in Croatia as well. Our lower leagues are just stronger than theirs, considerably, and that's something we should be happy about. Our lower leagues are strong compared to other European countries and we should be proud that we have so many clubs capable of sustaining playing nationally and averaging much better crowds than others at the same tiers across Europe. That's something to talk up, not a reason to try to cut the number of clubs playing nationally.

[Gimme]

I am pretty sure that the supporters of Glenafton and Talbot wouldn't find this League to be attractive. 

Neither were the EoS conferences. However we accepted them as a short term solution to establish a top league and embraced visiting new teams and grounds for a season (and no doubt putting additional money into the coffers of those clubs that would no doubt be welcome).

Yes there were many one sided games on the way but it's short term and you have to look at what will be achieved longer term rather than focusing on the short term negatives.

[Che Dail]

14 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Absolutely not, but I think the structure of the league set up has a lot less to do with the players we develop than things like facilities, coaching standards and the number of people who actively play sports.

Switzerland have been outperforming their population size for the best part of the last decade. Facilities here are far greater in number not to mention better in standard, and relatively cheaper to hire than back home. Coaching I cannot comment on as I have never really been involved in that but if it's like anything else here, you won't get near that position unless you are qualified to the correct level. As for numbers playing, football probably just about edges it as the main sport, though Ice Hockey is close and Winter sports in general have huge numbers. Most kids will grow up playing a few different things regularly(the missus nephews for example play football, handball and go skiing through the winter, a few other folk I know have kids who play football, handball, basketball and ice hockey at organised levels). I think the multi discipline aspect of it has a bug impact on things. It is maybe not specific to one sport but you are learning things that can cross over and be useful.

FWIW the Swiss league is regionalised below tier 3, sort of. It's a slightly confusing set up which goes Super League(Tier 1), Challenge League(Tier 2), Promotion League(Tier 3), 1. Liga is the start of the 4th tier, there are 3 leagues which are loosely regionalised but have a few anomolies, and below that there are a few other similar leagues at tier 4, though some are steadfast in the regionalisation, Then tier 5 is a mix of regionalised and semi regionalised leagues, then tiers 6 and 7 which are entirely regionalised. All are organised by the SFL and pretty much anyone can go from bottom to top provided they are good enough and have the facilities. Not uncommon here also for bigger teams to go bankrupt and be kicked out of the top league, only to reform and start again in the lower levels. Lausanne, Servette and Neuchatel have all done that in the last decade. They tend to put those teams in at tier 4 initially because there is no point in starting them lower and letting full time professionals play against guys who turn up half cut from the Friday night...

ETA: It's also not uncommon for teams to have more than one side in the pyramid. Most top league sides have 2nd and 3rd teams in at tier 3 and below. Even the wee towns and village sides will have more than one team. Only stipulation there is that the teams cannot play in the same league and the 2nd/3rd/4th team cannot move above tier 3. This of course means players who aren't good enough to make it at the top can keep playing regularly at their own level, but also means the younger players are getting games against physically mature guys at a young age in an organised set up, which helps their development no end.

That's a really good post btw, too many points to reply to right now, but you identify that they regionalise at T3 or T4.  (The country is twice the pop of scotland).

There's a common thread.

In simple terms, in my view, more clubs should be focusing on development and not chasing 'elite level' football beyond their means, which is unsustainable. 

So provide a platform at a regional level for the best 16, 17, 18 year olds to develop in a competitive environment. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Che Dail

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I am pretty sure that the supporters of Glenafton and Talbot wouldn't find this League to be attractive. 

Talbot fans are the ones making the most noise about travel and keeping things local etc, can’t have it both ways.
Something like conferences is inevitable so clubs have to be honest with their fans, regional conferences ensures an even playing field for all clubs starting out new. But if clubs dont want that then they should simply remain junior.

[Junior Pub League]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

In simple terms, in my view, more clubs should be focusing on development and not chasing 'elite level' football beyond their means, which is unsustainable. 

Which clubs are unsustainable at the moment?

Far more Junior clubs currently at risk than Seniors. And those Juniors are of course playing in regional leagues.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Junior Pub League

[Che Dail]

13 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Our lower leagues are just stronger than theirs, considerably, and that's something we should be happy about. Our lower leagues are strong compared to other European countries and we should be proud that we have so many clubs capable of sustaining playing nationally and averaging much better crowds than others at the same tiers across Europe. That's something to talk up, not a reason to try to cut the number of clubs playing nationally.

Sorry but this is, frankly, ridiculous.

Our non-league game for far too long has been a shambles with a false 'grade' splitting up the clubs, and no progression into the pro league structure.  Why should we be proud of that?  

At least it is getting fixed now but why it has taken so long is beyond me.

Who in the rest of Europe notices or cares that Scotland has a strong tier 7 or 8? 

[Marshmallo]

9 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

That's a really good post btw, too many points to reply to right now, but you identify that they regionalise at T3 or T4.  (The country is twice the pop of scotland).

There's a common thread.

That's what you picked out of his entire post?

 

Just now, Che Dail said:

Who in the rest of Europe notices or cares that Scotland has a strong tier 7 or 8? 

Who cares what "the rest of Europe" thinks about Scottish football period?

[Ross.]

15 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

That's a really good post btw, too many points to reply to right now, but you identify that they regionalise at T3 or T4.  (The country is twice the pop of scotland).

There's a common thread.

In simple terms, in my view, more clubs should be focusing on development and not chasing 'elite level' football beyond their means, which is unsustainable. 

So provide a platform at a regional level for the best 16, 17, 18 year olds to develop in a competitive environment. 

The development aspect of it is definitely the main thing below the 3rd division here. That's not just player development, it's also to do with facilities and community. Almost every town and village here has at least one top class community sports facility. I live in a place with a population of about 10000 and it had more full size football parks available than West Dunbartonshire as a whole when I looked into it 3/4 years back. That's as well as tennis courts, hockey pitches, basketball and handball courts. Granted, it is easier for them to maintain that standard given the state of public finances here compared to back home,  but there is also huge levels of local engagement when compared to back home, and people make sure the facilities are looked after as well.

[Che Dail]

42 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

That's what you picked out of his entire post?

 

Who cares what "the rest of Europe" thinks about Scottish football period?

Yes, the bit 'on topic'.

"Here's tae us. Wha's like us? Damn few, and we're deid."

Edited February 18, 2020 by Che Dail

[FairWeatherFan]

54 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I'd be very surprised if this was accurate.

It wouldn't surprise me as its just  interest at this point. Its not like the SOS is a United front. We've seen the failure of doing this sort of communication through league reps instead of as an individual club.

Bonnyton are considered the most obvious candidate. Threave have previously left for the EoS & Lowland. Its not as if the SoS is a particularly local league for some. A senior WOSFL could be tempting and deserves researching.

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It wouldn't surprise me as its just  interest at this point. Its not like the SOS is a United front. We've seen the failure of doing this sort of communication through league reps instead of as an individual club.

Bonnyton are considered the most obvious candidate. Threave have previously left for the EoS & Lowland. Its not as if the SoS is a particularly local league for some. A senior WOSFL could be tempting and deserves researching.

Yip, it might just be registering an interest to see what it's all about before deciding to apply.  Point is, some of those teams would be humped most weeks in a WoSFL so I'm not sure what they would have to gain by joining at this point (which is likely to be a Conference tier 6 system).

Musselburgh have put 13 past Mid's this season in 2 games, we put 8 past St.C's.

[Doonhamer1969]

Scrap League 2 (Tier 4), regionalise at Tier 3 (make Championship bigger to allow more relegation places), then have Highland and Lowland (which would then be Tier 4)- feeding directly into SPFL League One North and League One South.

No play offs , just a straight one up, one down between League One's and HL/LL. Put and extra 2-4 teams into the SPFL to allay the fears of the lower league teams.

[LongTimeLurker]

20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It wouldn't surprise me as its just  interest at this point. Its not like the SOS is a United front. We've seen the failure of doing this sort of communication through league reps instead of as an individual club.

Bonnyton are considered the most obvious candidate. Threave have previously left for the EoS & Lowland. Its not as if the SoS is a particularly local league for some. A senior WOSFL could be tempting and deserves researching.

The geographical integrity angle has yet to be explained, so time will tell who gets to put an application in. Suspect the D&G SoS clubs won't be able to as it would make it difficult to say no to West Lothian clubs. An interesting angle would be that if all the licensed SoS clubs left for a new west setup the LL playoff format would become a moot point, but Wigtown weren't mentioned so think there would still be one left even if those clubs all defected.

[Doonhamer1969]

Just now, Doonhamer1969 said:

Scrap League 2 (Tier 4), regionalise at Tier 3 (make Championship bigger to allow more relegation places), then have Highland and Lowland (which would then be Tier 4)- feeding directly into SPFL League One North and League One South.

No play offs , just a straight one up, one down between League One's and HL/LL. Put and extra 2-4 teams into the SPFL to allay the fears of the lower league teams.

Detail

Tier 1 Premiership 12-14 teams

Tier 2 Championship 12-14 teams.

Tier 3 League One North 10 teams

Tier 3 League One South 10 teams.

ONE snag...to make L1N and L1S even numbers, the boundary would need to be Forth estuary, rather than Tay estuary, like the Challenge Cup early rounds.