Junior football, what is the future?

[Marten]

1 minute ago, Dev said:

Who knows but could there be inter-conference games instead of group stages for cup competitions? It would mean that each clubs plays the others and it would, if needed, provide additional meaningful games.

What is possible all depends on numbers so we'll have to wait and see. The sensible thing would be for the clubs to decide together what they'd prefer.

[Burnie_man]

10 minutes ago, Dev said:

........ and the winners of the Alba Cup and the Alex Jack Cup play off with the winners of that receiving a place in the Scottish Cup - even though they are unlicenced. Presumably the WoS would have its' equivalent Cup competition with the winners joining this play off for a Scottish Cup place? However, will this place still be there in future?

How much was the minimum income from SFA membership and from playing in the earliest round of the Scottish Cup worth in total for 2018/19 for licenced clubs? Any idea what it is/maybe for 2019/20?

Playing one game in the Scottish Cup and being an SFA member gave you £15,000 (£3,000 plus £12,000 annoual payment), or £11,000 if you only became a member during 2019 (£3,000 plus £8,000 annual payment).  Annual payments do vary up and down every year, it might only be £4,000 this year.  Obviously prizemoney increased depending on the number of rounds you went, Broxburn made north of £40k in Scottish Cup money alone, BSC made over £80k.  If you enter at 1st Preliminary and reach Round One, you pocket £10k.

Clubs playing in the 1st Preliminary Round will receive (26 clubs)  £3,000
Clubs playing in the 2nd Preliminary Round will receive (14 clubs)  £3,000
Clubs playing in Round One will receive (36 clubs)    £4,000
Clubs playing in Round Two will receive (32 clubs)    £5,000
Clubs playing in Round Three will receive (32 clubs)    £6,000
Clubs playing in Round Four will receive (32 clubs)  £20,000
Clubs playing in Round Five will receive (16 clubs)   £40,000

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, Dev said:

........ and the winners of the Alba Cup and the Alex Jack Cup play off with the winners of that receiving a place in the Scottish Cup - even though they are unlicenced. Presumably the WoS would have its' equivalent Cup competition with the winners joining this play off for a Scottish Cup place? However, will this place still be there in future?

How much was the minimum income from SFA membership and from playing in the earliest round of the Scottish Cup worth in total for 2018/19 for licenced clubs? Any idea what it is/maybe for 2019/20?

Burnie Man has broken down the figures further on.

I avoided mentioning the South and East Cup Winners Shield as a qualifying route to the Scottish Cup as there's meant to be a proposal going in front of the SFA membership over removing all qualifying spots. After the floodlights, and change to voting rights, I didn't want to highlight something that might get pulled soon.

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, Marten said:

True, but a lot depends on numbers and whether or not that's practical, so these things can only really be discussed once it's known how many clubs applied and got accepted.

Of course, but it's an illustration that there's solutions out there if numbers are a bit awkward.

[Pyramidic]

10 hours ago, Shannon said:

What cup competitions would the new West of Scotland teams be involved in? A lot of clubs including mine at Irvine Meadow have a sizeable amount of our support wanting to stay Junior as don't know or understand the latest developments.

Can anyone explain all the benefits and any negatives so Junior teams can fully explain to guys who are not on Social Media for future EGMs and meetings...? In case anything folk have missed and for a run down of why teams like mine at Irvine Meadow need to join the pyramid now and not later.
 

Some of us recall the advantages that Kefc put forward for joining the mass exodus of Eastern Junior clubs to join the EoSFL.  I do not think that there is a single club that has regretted the move. As the LL/EosFL will be setting up the WoSFL I suggest that a lot of the points made by Kefc are still relevant - see below.

 

Quote

What does the East of Scotland Football League have to offer?

• Membership of EOSFL which confirms acceptance of and commitment to the pyramid system thereby satisfying a mandatory requirement of being granted a Club Licence.

• Automatic entry to the Scottish Cup for Champion Club irrespective of licencing status which will generate a minimum income in excess of £3,000

• 3 ways of Scottish Cup Entry, EOS & SOS League Champions, Alex Jack Cup Winner, Any Licenced Club

• £3,000 Funding towards ground improvements available to all un-licenced  clubs looking to gain their SFA Licence

• Up to £10,000 funding as an EOS club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements.

• Our ambition is to have all Members licenced as soon as possible and thereby automatically in the Scottish Cup every year.

• Very likely more promotion places will be available to enter the Lowland League from Tier 6

• Depending on interest from that area a possible West Of Scotland division would be looked at for tier 6

• SFA Sports First Aid courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge). SFA Licence compliant

• All clubs supplied with a defibrillator and associated training. SFA Licence compliant

• Bespoke personalised first aid bag.

• Personal Accident and Liability insurance incl. player to player liability paid for by the League. SFA  Licence compliant

• Match balls and training balls supplied each season.

• Bespoke goalkeeping courses.

• Coaching courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge) up to C Licence level.

• Prize money for those Clubs finishing in the top four in the league.

• A sound organisational structure with fixtures issued on a seasonal basis.

• In combination with the Scottish Lowland League and the South of Scotland League an U20 development league for the development of a player pathway.

• Automatic entry for the U20 team into the Scottish Youth Cup.

 

19 points,  4 of them regarding finances? Fixture list, u20 League, exposure in national cups, SFA Licence, pyramid?

Can you make a case for clubs in the East to remain a Junior club that will see them prosper? It’s slowly dying the best non league “blue riband” competition in Scotland can’t even get a sponsor and hasn’t had for years, 1 example of where it’s at.

 

[Baldie2k19]

28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The EoS have shown with their Conferences this season that there are solutions  eg. 24 clubs apply to WoS, 2 x 12 Conferences with home and away plus an inter Conference round = 33 games, and you play all 23 other clubs so nobody loses out.

34 games not 33

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, Baldie2k19 said:

34 games not 33

Thanks for paying attention

[theesel1994]

So one would have to assume with all the extra SFA entrants through Licencing, the SFA will be cutting back on the un-Licenced entrants soon?

No place for the Scottish Junior Cup winners and Junior League winners. The only entry for a club like Talbot to keep their annual SFA money is through Licensing. And to be Licensed in future I would imagine the League has to be part of the Pyramid.

Can you see where I'm going with this?

[craigkillie]

I'm not convinced the WoS should be going for a conference system. The conferences in the EoS were borne out of circumstance because only a handful of clubs were expected to apply and they were explicitly expecting to apply for a spot in Tier 6 alongside the existing clubs. Once the numbers got so high, the conferences were the only way to really satisfy those requirements.

This time around, there is no existing league and it's basically being created from scratch. I'm not sure the applicants have been promised a spot at Tier 6, and almost every club who moves across is going to be coming from the existing Junior structure. For me, it would therefore make sense to just immediately go for a two/three division structure and use this season's placings in the West Region to determine the make up of those divisions. As an existing Tier 6 team, Bonnyton could slot in at that level, while any amateur applicants would surely be happy enough to join lower down the food chain anyway.

Edited February 15, 2020 by craigkillie

[FairWeatherFan]

39 minutes ago, Dev said:

How much was the minimum income from SFA membership

When Selkirk applied for a floodlighting grant they included their financials for 2016-17 and 2015-16 (which included 2014-15 figures). For income they have a seperate row for 'SFA'

• 2014-15 = £11,500
• 2015-16 = £9,374
• 2016-17 = £15,068

Even if that includes Scottish Cup prize money in each of those year's Selkirk were knocked out in the 1st Round and that was their only game. First Round prize money in 2016-17 was £2,000. So take that away from those figures you're looking at £7,374-£13,068. There's been an increase in SFA membership since then, but you'd still be left with thousands.

Edited February 15, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[Marten]

25 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Of course, but it's an illustration that there's solutions out there if numbers are a bit awkward.

That's true and obviously there are different solutions. Main thing is that the actual clubs involved should decide what is best for them imo.

[glensmad]

43 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

• All clubs supplied with a defibrillator and associated training. SFA Licence compliant

Is that true, all clubs in the pyramid are supplied with a defribillator ? I was building the cost of that into our SFA club licence feasibility. That would be a huge bonus if that is the case.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, glensmad said:

Is that true, all clubs in the pyramid are supplied with a defribillator ? I was building the cost of that into our SFA club licence feasibility. That would be a huge bonus if that is the case.

That list is perhaps misleading nowadays as it was to focus the benefits of joining the EoSFL. Its also a couple of years old now.

[Pyramidic]

3 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Is that true, all clubs in the pyramid are supplied with a defribillator ? I was building the cost of that into our SFA club licence feasibility. That would be a huge bonus if that is the case.

Good point. This is the sort of issue that needs to be checked with the LL/EoSFL.

[crfc]

Is that true, all clubs in the pyramid are supplied with a defribillator ? I was building the cost of that into our SFA club licence feasibility. That would be a huge bonus if that is the case.

You'll find that the majority of clubs have started the pathway so they meet the criteria that is required and cost of many of the needed things have been met by the clubs .

[AlanCamelonfan]

34 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Is that true, all clubs in the pyramid are supplied with a defribillator ? I was building the cost of that into our SFA club licence feasibility. That would be a huge bonus if that is the case.

We got one anyway

[Burnie_man]

44 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Is that true, all clubs in the pyramid are supplied with a defribillator ? I was building the cost of that into our SFA club licence feasibility. That would be a huge bonus if that is the case.

Not last season. The EoS obtained grant money to part pay for them, and the clubs paid the balance, I can't recall the exact numbers involved, it could have been around 30% of the cost clubs had to pay.

Also, the grant money from the EoS available to clubs to make ground improvements for licence is now capped at £1,000 due to the increase in membership, but still a handy sum.

Also, the SFP grant money has been cut, it's now £2,500 and not £10,000.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Burnie_man

[crfc]

All these non pyramiders trying to find obstacles for clubs is shocking the clubs have met the criteria set by the sfa/sjfa so clubs want to take the next step as they have already spent money to get to that level so shut up moaning and get behind the clubs for the move .

[Arthurlie1981]

I'm not convinced the WoS should be going for a conference system. The conferences in the EoS were borne out of circumstance because only a handful of clubs were expected to apply and they were explicitly expecting to apply for a spot in Tier 6 alongside the existing clubs. Once the numbers got so high, the conferences were the only way to really satisfy those requirements.
This time around, there is no existing league and it's basically being created from scratch. I'm not sure the applicants have been promised a spot at Tier 6, and almost every club who moves across is going to be coming from the existing Junior structure. For me, it would therefore make sense to just immediately go for a two/three division structure and use this season's placings in the West Region to determine the make up of those divisions. As an existing Tier 6 team, Bonnyton could slot in at that level, while any amateur applicants would surely be happy enough to join lower down the food chain anyway.

I agree with the premise but it is a new league and a previous years league that has nothing to do with it shouldn’t be the determining factor. If all the top league clubs came across who would miss out to accommodate Bonnyton? Why should an amateur team start at the bottom arguably some of them could be better than team in leagues above them. If there are no applications from clubs outside of the existing west juniors then I agree the status quo should remain but if there are outside applicants (as it seems likely) then conferences are the way to go.

[TFW]

Folk are asking what cups they'll be involved in if they leave the Juniors. Given that there is bound to be some national set up either this season or next it wouldn't take a genius to come up with a national competition - similar to the Junior Cup - but involving the HL, LL, EoS, SoS and WoSC teams? Regionalise the first round (or maybe two) so it doesn't get too cost prohibitive, and seed teams the following season if they are in the BETFRED Cup or the like.

Despite the travel involved, I do love Talbot's trips up north as it usually means another new ground to visit etc. A national competition could be the glue that bonds everything together?