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Burnie_man

Junior football, what is the future?

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27 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Thanks.  I think it may be diffcult to plug-in a stand alone league anywhere other than at tier 8 regional (ie WoS Premier at tier 6, WoS First at tier 7, and then widening out into Tier 8 Glasgow, Ayrshire, and SoS as I think Stanley suggested earlier.  That is the kind of set-up the EoS will I think move to if more East Juniors join, and probably tier 8 would be where (no disrepect) the smaller original EoS clubs will end up like Hawick, Peebles, Eyemouth, Ormiston etc.

Yes, SoS will probably wind up at Tier 8 eventually, but a lot of folk on here seem to be assuming that all 63 WJFA clubs are going to defect en masse to the new WoS instantly.

Until we see how many do, its difficult to say exactly what will happen in the short to medium term.

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4 minutes ago, VillanoXIV said:

I think it’s pretty mental that after years of people (rightly) harping on the SJFA for deriding the Lowland League as being of inferior quality and populated by teams like BSC and Caley Braves with double figures fanbases are now using the same excuse to shunt SoS down to Tier 7/8.

Also funny to see people deriding the remaining East Juniors for wanting to come in at Tier 6 by saying they should have joined when they had the chance and then suggesting St Cuthbert and the lads make space for the proper big teams like Talbot and either be assimilated or gentlemanly forfeit their Tier 6 status for the betterment of some OCD forum posters who don’t live in the area and think the league is shite, because they can’t be arsed to pay attention to it. 

it’s a historic regional league which embraced the pyramid when everyone else was wailing about gold toilets and Elgin away on a Tuesday. Seeing as half the league isn’t licensed and reserves, it’s highly unlikely that they are going to factor into LL promotion/relegation anyway so what is the necessity to rip them up apart from to stop some P&B poster from KIlbirnie having panic attacks because their precious pyramid isn’t exactly to his liking?

Personally I have been paying attention recently.

I watched my team play poorly and beat St.Cuthberts 8-1 in the SCC earlier this season, I was at the Musselburgh v Mid Annandale game recently as it was held at our ground, and they won at a canter 7-0, I believe Mussy also won 5-0 earlier in the season in the SCC.  Last season I watched St.Cuthberts play Annan Athletic Reserves and it was frankly awful.

This league should not be a tier 6 but as you say, they got off their backsides and helped set-up the Pyramid so have every right to stand their ground and not cow tow to anyone.  But reality suggests that they should perhaps, somewhere down the line, look to operate at a level more equitable to their standard and not enter a LL play-off that few want to win. They may enjoy it more. 

I think that's a fair observation.

 

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Sorry but it’s not about being unfair to the SOS their ambitious teams should stay at tier 6 by joining the WOS. The other teams need to be realistic though. Say you’re a St Cuthbert’s fan and the SOS as is remains here’s the scenarios if you win.

Tier 6 play off against Talbot/Linlithgow (cricket scores both legs)
Tier 6 automatic promotion to a continually strengthening Lowland League (season of cricket scores)

There is absolutely no enjoyment for a fan of St Cuthbert in those scenarios. Keeping the SOS too high won’t do their clubs any favours. There’s no point in promoting their champions into a league that they’d be non competitive in.

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3 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Yes, SoS will probably wind up at Tier 8 eventually, but a lot of folk on here seem to be assuming that all 63 WJFA clubs are going to defect en masse to the new WoS instantly.

Until we see how many do, its difficult to say exactly what will happen in the short to medium term.

Agree.  Talk of "downgrading" the SoS is a bit premature.

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If a West of Scotland league was set up and BSC Glasgow found themselves to be relegated would they go East or West?

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7 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Sorry but it’s not about being unfair to the SOS their ambitious teams should stay at tier 6 by joining the WOS. The other teams need to be realistic though. Say you’re a St Cuthbert’s fan and the SOS as is remains here’s the scenarios if you win.

Tier 6 play off against Talbot/Linlithgow (cricket scores both legs)
Tier 6 automatic promotion to a continually strengthening Lowland League (season of cricket scores)

There is absolutely no enjoyment for a fan of St Cuthbert in those scenarios. Keeping the SOS too high won’t do their clubs any favours. There’s no point in promoting their champions into a league that they’d be non competitive in.

 Gretna 2008, Edin Uni and Dalbeattie Star wouldnt be dishing out cricket scores to St Cuthberts or Threave.

The SoS will find its level when we see how many WJFA clubs, and , more importantly, of which current WJFA division, go to the WoS.

I'd fancy Threave's chances against Ardeer or Saltcoats Vics any day.

As Burnie Man said, kicking the SoS down to Tier 8 or 9 is hugely premature.

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14 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Personally I have been paying attention recently.

I watched my team play poorly and beat St.Cuthberts 8-1 in the SCC earlier this season, I was at the Musselburgh v Mid Annandale game recently as it was held at our ground, and they won at a canter 7-0, I believe Mussy also won 5-0 earlier in the season in the SCC.  Last season I watched St.Cuthberts play Annan Athletic Reserves and it was frankly awful.

This league should not be a tier 6 but as you say, they got off their backsides and helped set-up the Pyramid so have every right to stand their ground and not cow tow to anyone.  But reality suggests that they should perhaps, somewhere down the line, look to operate at a level more equitable to their standard and not enter a LL play-off that few want to win. They may enjoy it more. 

I think that's a fair observation.

 

Yes

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19 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Sorry but it’s not about being unfair to the SOS their ambitious teams should stay at tier 6 by joining the WOS. The other teams need to be realistic though. Say you’re a St Cuthbert’s fan and the SOS as is remains here’s the scenarios if you win.

Tier 6 play off against Talbot/Linlithgow (cricket scores both legs)
Tier 6 automatic promotion to a continually strengthening Lowland League (season of cricket scores)

There is absolutely no enjoyment for a fan of St Cuthbert in those scenarios. Keeping the SOS too high won’t do their clubs any favours. There’s no point in promoting their champions into a league that they’d be non competitive in.

But neither of these situations are likely because either A) The champions would not be licenced, meaning they wouldn’t contest play-offs, so no cricket scores and literally of no consequence to the relevant EOS/WOS teams or B) The champions had secured a licence with the aim of entering the LL, in which case they would have had to make considerable upgrades to the team’s infrastructure and by association, the on-pitch team to mount a challenge, which would be a more level playing field. 

I find it a rather cynical view you advocate that the SOS would not want to be involved at Tier 6 for fear of getting shoed. If that was the case then why does anyone outside the favourites bother entering cup competitions, because they’ll just get shoed, right?

i feel it is very narrow-sighted to advocate the downgrade of the SOS and does not take into account the clubs in the league themselves. They have a good setup with local rivalries that mean something to the clubs. I don’t see why clubs should be asked to ditch their local derbies and theoretically go to Pollok, Oban or Kilsyth for away games if they want to progress as a club when a bunch of people on here who support teams from the WOS leagues don’t want to watch their team play against St. Cuthbert’s. Where is the benefit for SOS clubs in this restructure?

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1 hour ago, ArabAuslander said:

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Worked This up. It only let me do counties so I would say that P+K would definitely straddle as border territory. The same can be said of West Lothian possibly.

Oban Saints v Girvan is gonna be a hell of a hike ;)

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36 minutes ago, Enigma said:

If a West of Scotland league was set up and BSC Glasgow found themselves to be relegated would they go East or West?

Half way between Glesca and Alloa ;)

(To be serious, its a fair question. Time Glesca Cooncil was helping find a suitable place for BSC to set up home)

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SOS has supported the pyramid since the beginning and that shouldn't be ignored. But they do represent a much smaller slice of the population and everyone knows the quality of the league would not be at a par of other tier 6 regions.

I think one possible solution once any west region is finally included in the pyramid, is to  weight the play-offs to reflect the number of clubs in each region so the region with more clubs in it has more chances to get promoted to the LL. For example if the LL ever goes to two-up two-down, the SOS champions would have to beat both the west and east champions to get promoted to the LL, if they won both games they'd be fully deserving and the east and west would play off for the second promotion spot.

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8 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

Caley Braves? They won it with a bunch of French students and moved to the Central Belt as soon as they could, turning over the entire team who won the pub league. They won the league, hardly an argument for it being strong if a freakshow club can pitch up and finish ahead of "Mid Annandale" and "Dumfries YMCA

I'm sure this French students will be enamoured with your description of them as a freakshow.....

You're simply wrong anyway. The Edusport team that won the SoS only had about 4 French players on average in it's usual starting 11, the process of separating the academy and the first team had already started.

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30 minutes ago, Cameron Wilson said:

SOS has supported the pyramid since the beginning and that shouldn't be ignored. But they do represent a much smaller slice of the population and everyone knows the quality of the league would not be at a par of other tier 6 regions.

I think one possible solution once any west region is finally included in the pyramid, is to  weight the play-offs to reflect the number of clubs in each region so the region with more clubs in it has more chances to get promoted to the LL. For example if the LL ever goes to two-up two-down, the SOS champions would have to beat both the west and east champions to get promoted to the LL, if they won both games they'd be fully deserving and the east and west would play off for the second promotion spot.

The LL will have to go to 2 up, 2 down if a WoS is coming on board.

In principal I agree with the concept of weighting, but a simpler way is a 3 way play off as they did last year in the EoS.

In practical terms, if one of the clubs isn't licenced, no play off required, straightforward 2 up, 2 down.

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7 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I dont understand everyone’s rush to demote the sosl etc, why should it even be considered right now?

This "rush" is totally unnecessary.

The primary aim now is to establish a senior West League, in time for 2020/21. Unleashing an attack on the status of the SoSL is totally unnecessary, and is another attempt at  causing confusion, and delay in the extension of the pyramid to into the west region.

The standard of the SoSL has improved in recent years, and whilst it is clearly not as strong as either the WRJFA or the EoSL, this is not the right time to start another upheaval. Also, the SoSL may be further strengthened if Dalbeattie Star and Gretna (both licensed SFA members) are relegated from a strenthened Lowland League in (say) the next 3 years or so.

And, IF the fixed boundary enthusiasts on this forum, get their way, a league swap between Bonnyton Thistle and Kello Rovers would be required. Of course, this assumes that the 'powers that be', can force clubs to change leagues against their will.  Can they ???  

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Next season it could even be regionalised so that clubs in the sosl could be incorporated into the pyramid at 6 with the wosl, could have regional conferences to decide the make up of the west for the season after. Id suggest to increase numbers Girvan, Craigmark, Kello, Glenafton and Talbot would be best placed to form a ‘south conference’ league clubs, then a Glasgow/Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire conference and one incorporating the ayrshire/renfrewshire/inverclyde teams. The top 6 from each could form an 18 team wosl premier, means the season after that a regional structure would be ready..?

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9 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:


It would be up to the SPFL clubs how a team would be replaced - they have a free hand as far as I can see. They could invite any club they wish

...again!

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Back to the border issue.

Have I missed anyone suggesting more flexible borders? In that case, if they join either, the likes of Shotts, Fauldhoue etc could be laterally switched, depending on all promotion and relegation, to keep the regional division numbers even.

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I'm sure this French students will be enamoured with your description of them as a freakshow.....
You're simply wrong anyway. The Edusport team that won the SoS only had about 4 French players on average in it's usual starting 11, the process of separating the academy and the first team had already started.
Incorrect, they were 99% French in their last south season.

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The SoSL's continued participation at tier 6 is a non-issue along the lines of fretting that the World Cup would be devalued if Scotland qualified for it.

As things stand and for the foreseeable future they're extremely unlikely to mount a challenge for any promotion to the LL, with their champions almost certain to be comfortably taken care of in a playoff by any team capable of being the champions of either the EoS or any putative WoS.

If the leagues finished today, this season's playoff would be between Bo'ness United and Threave Rovers. I know who my money would be on.

Leave them be at tier 6 - all we're doing otherwise is muddying the waters.

Edited by Hillonearth

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20 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

The SoSL's continued participation at tier 6 is a non-issue along the lines of fretting that the World Cup would be devalued if Scotland qualified for it.

As things stand and for the foreseeable future they're extremely unlikely to mount a challenge for any promotion to the LL, with their champions almost certain to be comfortably taken care of in a playoff by any team capable of being the champions of either the EoS or any putative WoS.

If the leagues finished today, this season's playoff would be between Bo'ness United and Threave Rovers. I know who my money would be on.

Leave them be at tier 6 - all we're doing otherwise is muddying the waters.

There is the small issue of two weeks of the fixture calendar being taken up by these one sided play off games...

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