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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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5 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

This was the quote from the document

"A meeting was arranged for 5th January with the undernoted proposal A being promoted by the SFA and a request by the SJFA for discussion and consideration, in parallel, of proposal B. Represented at the meeting were the SFA, SHFL, SLFL, EoS, SoS and SJFA (T.A. Johnston and I. McQueen.)"

 

So I'm taking that at face value.  Doesn't bode well for professional presentations that the two diagrams are the wrong way round.  Who is I.McQueen?

Aye, 'promoted' ahead of Option B, but not 'proposed'.   The document implies that this arrangement is what the SFA want.

Absolutely no doubt they want the Junior CLUBS in the pyramid, but not on the arrangement being proposed here by the SJFA.

The document pretty much says that the SJFA wants to remain independent, but allow its clubs to achieve a licence and compete  in the Scottish Cup. 

There are no explanations on promotion / relegation. What if a decent ams team wins the EoS then gets relegated from the LL... into the Super League?

What if Linlithgow win the SL but don't want to be promoted to the LL? 

The pyramid needs buy-in from everyone and judging by the tone and language in this document, the SJFA leadership isn't commited or positive enough about it.

It mentions potentially  'losing' 2 clubs a season which is a negative view if this is to be  a true collaboration.

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11 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Been emailed tonight the questionnaire from the SJFA re pyramid meeting on 5th January.  Two options for the Juniors joining the Pyramid en-masse were discussed:

A: West and East Superleagues sit alongside East and South of Scotland Leagues with play-off for promotion to Lowland League

B: West and East Superleagues sit alongside Lowland League and play off with Highland League for SPFL promotion

Says the SFA favour option A, but the SJFA wanted option B discussed as well.  Option A more likely to be accepted. Start date listed as 2019-20.

If either proposal happens, SJFA seems to remain intact within pyramid, and clubs being promoted to Lowland could retain place in Junior Cup via a rules revision.  North Juniors need licence and floodlights to join Highland League.

Questionnaire ask clubs if Junior football should join the pyramid, which option they prefer A or B, and also a question as to whether they have the facilities to be licenced, to be returned by end of month.

Interesting developments, would allow clubs to remain Junior and become licenced and get into Lowland.

If this is  a true reflection of that meeting and the SFA are pushing option A then it has to be that one. No way are the Juniors going to be accepted on the same level as the LL, that's fantasy thinking.

Option A allows the Juniors to move as a block into the Pyramid and means no change at all for 95% of clubs, it does however allow clubs at the top end to start thinking Licence and promotion to the LL, no more glass ceiling, it also allows clubs lower down to get Licenced and benefit from Scottish Cup participation.

Long term you'd have to think that the EoSFL will merge in with the existing East Region, and the SoSFL tags on in some way to the West, but they can all exist separately for the time being.

If this is actually a serious proposition and the SJFA are serious about driving change in time for 2019-2020, then it may halt the flow to the EoSFL.  Then again, if they are serious......I remain skeptical.

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4 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Aye, 'promoted' ahead of Option B, but not 'proposed'.   The document implies that this arrangement is what the SFA want.

Absolutely no doubt they want the Junior CLUBS in the pyramid, but not on the arrangement being proposed here by the SJFA.

The document pretty much says that the SJFA wants to remain independent, but allow its clubs to achieve a licence and compete  in the Scottish Cup. 

There are no explanations on promotion / relegation. What if a decent ams team wins the EoS then gets relegated from the LL... into the Super League?

What if Linlithgow win the SL but don't want to be promoted to the LL? 

The pyramid needs buy-in from everyone and judging by the tone and language in this document, the SJFA leadership isn't commited or positive enough about it.

It mentions potentially  'losing' 2 clubs a season which is a negative view if this is to be  a true collaboration.

Not seen the document yet but I'd guess what the SJFA wants is to be treated the same as the EoSFL, SoSFL, LL, HFL, ie they would effectively become a league organisation. 

There isn't a great deal of difference to be honest between what the SJFA/Regions do and for example the EoSFL.  They both run leagues and they both run cups, the SJFA would need to abolish the re-instatement rule and maybe a few other changes to harmonise with the other leagues but that's about it.  TJ would get to keep his job......

As for relegation, if Whitehill for example are relegated they'd go back to EoSFL, Dalbeattie to the SoSFL.  The problem comes if ever someone like Cumbernauld get relegated, there would have to be an agreement that any LL clubs that fall within the West Region boundary that the West Superleague takes them.

As I said, I'm skeptical from what I've seen on here, there might be more too it of course, but it''s now time for those clubs who want involved in the Pyramid to start making noises.

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30 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Not seen the document yet but I'd guess what the SJFA wants is to be treated the same as the EoSFL, SoSFL, LL, HFL, ie they would effectively become a league organisation. 

There isn't a great deal of difference to be honest between what the SJFA/Regions do and for example the EoSFL.  They both run leagues and they both run cups, the SJFA would need to abolish the re-instatement rule and maybe a few other changes to harmonise with the other leagues but that's about it.  TJ would get to keep his job......

As for relegation, if Whitehill for example are relegated they'd go back to EoSFL, Dalbeattie to the SoSFL.  The problem comes if ever someone like Cumbernauld get relegated, there would have to be an agreement that any LL clubs that fall within the West Region boundary that the West Superleague takes them.

As I said, I'm skeptical from what I've seen on here, there might be more too it of course, but it''s now time for those clubs who want involved in the Pyramid to start making noises.

ffs, don't mention the Colts.

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13 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

...Interesting developments, would allow clubs to remain Junior and become licenced and get into Lowland.

Also would allow clubs not to get licensed and avoid compulsory promotion and do a Lothian Thistle and block it for the clubs that want it, so suspect there would still be defections to the EoS and a niche for a WoS, if changes weren't made on who is eligible for the promotion playoff into the LL.

13 hours ago, parsforlife said:

SJFA still proposing utterly ridiculous scenarios? Some things won't change.

 

Can you explain what's ridiculous about the west superleague being on par with the LL given it would address the geographical imbalance that exists at tier 5 at present? If enough west superleague clubs were positive about the progression angle to the pyramid and can get licensed by 2019-20 that merits discussion. Suspect there wouldn't be so it's probably empty posturing to preempt possible future criticism rather than something they seriously expect to happen.

Edited by LongTimeLurker
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13 hours ago, parsforlife said:

 


SJFA still proposing utterly ridiculous scenarios? Some things won't change.

 

They're just being very self centred and looking after their own interests. I can't think of a single strand of Scottish football which exhibits a different set of behaviours. 

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Can you explain what's ridiculous about the west superleague being on par with the LL given it would address the geographical imbalance that exists at tier 5 at present? If enough west superleague clubs were positive about the progression angle to the pyramid and can get licensed by 2019-20 that merits discussion. Suspect there wouldn't be so it's probably empty posturing to preempt possible future criticism rather than something they seriously expect to happen.


You have already half-covered why the super leagues can't have equal status. I have covered the rest previously.

They're just being very self centred and looking after their own interests. I can't think of a single strand of Scottish football which exhibits a different set of behaviours. 


It isn't just self centred, it still has a large amount of isolationism to it, something everyone else apart from the HL have managed to get over.
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6 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

This was the quote from the document

"A meeting was arranged for 5th January with the undernoted proposal A being promoted by the SFA and a request by the SJFA for discussion and consideration, in parallel, of proposal B. Represented at the meeting were the SFA, SHFL, SLFL, EoS, SoS and SJFA (T.A. Johnston and I. McQueen.)"

 

So I'm taking that at face value.  Doesn't bode well for professional presentations that the two diagrams are the wrong way round.  Who is I.McQueen?

Iain McQueen is former manager of Kilbirnie and Dalry , assistant at Beith , Winton Rovers and former general manager of Irvine Meadow. His brother is Gordon McQueen ex Leeds ,Man Utd , his neice is Hayley McQueen of Sky. He is a good guy , knows his stuff.

Edited by clash city rocker
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3 hours ago, parsforlife said:

It isn't just self centred, it still has a large amount of isolationism to it, something everyone else apart from the HL have managed to get over.

Don't think the Highland League deserves particular stick for this. The SJFA themselves have completely ignored the issue of the North Region feeding into the Highland League. Why wouldn't the SJFA simply propose all 3 Regions' top division slot in at Tier 6, perhaps its because the North Juniors don't want to be involved.

Whatever anyone might think of the Banks O'Dee situation and how it might evolve, they're currently on the record as not interested in joining the Highland League.

 

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1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Don't think the Highland League deserves particular stick for this. The SJFA themselves have completely ignored the issue of the North Region feeding into the Highland League. Why wouldn't the SJFA simply propose all 3 Regions' top division slot in at Tier 6, perhaps its because the North Juniors don't want to be involved.

Whatever anyone might think of the Banks O'Dee situation and how it might evolve, they're currently on the record as not interested in joining the Highland League.

 

Anyone got the quote from Banks o Dee?

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1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

...Whatever anyone might think of the Banks O'Dee situation and how it might evolve, they're currently on the record as not interested in joining the Highland League.

Source on that last bit? If Fort William fold at the end of the season as has been rumoured or Cove Rangers get promoted they may have a vacancy in not too distant future. There's not much point applying to a closed shop unless they are actively looking for a new member, so that would be the time to judge what's happening on that score.

If, and it's a big if, this proposal A thing happens, it would probably only be a matter of time until the North Region feeds into the HL once the  concept of pro/rel between grades becomes accepted. Now that the LL:HL boundary is the North Esk rather than the Tay the only outlier involved is Montrose Roselea and that's only by a few miles, so easy enough to make an exception in their case.

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On 09/02/2018 at 22:12, Goalie Hamish said:

It says the SFA proposed that option, and isn't there supposed to be 2 relegated from the Lowland from next season.

4 champion clubs competing for a play-off with 1 SPFL club, and still not promoted if they lose ! If this was introduced, the 10th club in the SPFL would need to be relegated automatically each season.

Can't see this happening.

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10 hours ago, Robert James said:

4 champion clubs competing for a play-off with 1 SPFL club, and still not promoted if they lose ! If this was introduced, the 10th club in the SPFL would need to be relegated automatically each season.

Can't see this happening.

Of course they should be automatically relegated and the second bottom side should go into a play off same as in the other divisions. 

It's typical of the approach taken by Scottish football to reward failure rather than success by putting the clubs who have had a really good season through far more hoops than teams who have demonstrably shown themselves to be not good enough for the level they're playing at. 

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12 hours ago, Robert James said:

4 champion clubs competing for a play-off with 1 SPFL club, and still not promoted if they lose ! If this was introduced, the 10th club in the SPFL would need to be relegated automatically each season.

Can't see this happening.

The SFA didn't propose that option, it says they favour the Juniors sitting alongside the East and South of Scotland Leagues.  It was the SJFA that suggested the Juniors sit alongside the Lowland. No chance of that happening.

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To be fair to the SJFA it sounds like option B is being pushed as a matter for discussion only if enough junior superleague clubs are interested and are able to do licensing in time:

On 2018/02/09 at 23:54, Goalie Hamish said:

...Says the SFA favour option A, but the SJFA wanted option B discussed as well.  Option A more likely to be accepted. Start date listed as 2019-20...

Questionnaire ask clubs if Junior football should join the pyramid, which option they prefer A or B, and also a question as to whether they have the facilities to be licenced, to be returned by end of month...

which seems unlikely.

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On 10/02/2018 at 09:32, Burnie_man said:

If this is  a true reflection of that meeting and the SFA are pushing option A then it has to be that one. No way are the Juniors going to be accepted on the same level as the LL, that's fantasy thinking.

Option A allows the Juniors to move as a block into the Pyramid and means no change at all for 95% of clubs, it does however allow clubs at the top end to start thinking Licence and promotion to the LL, no more glass ceiling, it also allows clubs lower down to get Licenced and benefit from Scottish Cup participation.

Long term you'd have to think that the EoSFL will merge in with the existing East Region, and the SoSFL tags on in some way to the West, but they can all exist separately for the time being.

If this is actually a serious proposition and the SJFA are serious about driving change in time for 2019-2020, then it may halt the flow to the EoSFL.  Then again, if they are serious......I remain skeptical.

I think it is obvious that the SJFA sees this as a way to "halt the flow to the EoSFL".  I hope aspiring junior clubs realise this !

Also whichever Option is favoured, the document must make it clear that promotion from tiers 5 & 6 is compulsory for ALL licensed clubs. Otherwise Junior clubs can commit to the pyramid, solely for the purpose of gaining entry to the Scottish Cup.

If the SFA agrees to incorporate the Junior Leagues into the pyramid, it must also resolve the 'other' North problem, ie incorporation of the NCL into the set up. Two of the last seven clubs which have been elected into the HFL have come from the NCL (Wick Academy & Fort William), and if they were relegated in future, there would be no way either could stay within the pyramid (nor Brora) as the North Juniors is not a viable regional/financial alternative.  NCL clubs like Thurso FC and Orkney FC are based in towns with decent sized populations, and have good levels of support, and whilst they are not seeking HFL membership at present (nor are Golspie), who knows what the future holds? 

However, the main point here is that the current 9 NCL clubs  are located in an area not geographically covered by the North Juniors. (NCL club Alness Utd applied to join the Juniors  a few years ago, but were rejected).  An integrated senior/junior pyramid, which excludes clubs from the highlands & islands north & west of Inverness, would de facto exclude one large area of Scotland. 

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On 10/02/2018 at 11:58, HTG said:

They're just being very self centred and looking after their own interests. I can't think of a single strand of Scottish football which exhibits a different set of behaviours. 

Given that the member clubs currently in the pyramid will be the ones voting on the SJFA proposals, tell us what you make of this:

PYRAMID

Whilst it could be argued that Pyramid could aid the development of the game in Scotland, some would also suggest that the concept of the Lowland League was flawed – primarily being a rebadged East of Scotland League with geography rather that merit being part of the selection process.   However, over the last 5 seasons, standards both on and off the park have improved in the Lowland League.

The newly formed East Kilbride FC have been consistently improving on the pitch and all 16 clubs now are Club Licensed.

The down side however is the “nomadic” clubs who have no fixed abode nor demonstrable support, together with Stirling and Edinburgh Universities and one could be excused for asking what they bring to the game overall.

Very poorly worded, a certain level of arrogance displayed in this passage which permeates through the whole paper unfortunately. 

It also has several typos, factual inaccuracies, spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, and they've got the name of some clubs wrong.  How to win friends and influence people.  The wrong illustrations are used to describe the options, the pyramid diagram is confusing (the bands don't line up with the text) and the survey itself is woefully inadequate - 3 poorly selected questions to determine the future of Junior football. 

Do the North clubs just ignore it since Options A and B don't include them at all?  Why is there not an option for the East Region clubs to merge in with the East of Scotland League?

The language & tone of the document and the basic Word formatting of the thing is decidedly amateurish - it just doesn't fit with the SFA media image or PR profile  - they've had nothing to do with this.  

As a progression of Option A, the national Junior Association should simply break up and split into distinct regions, join the pyramid and promote its top clubs into the Lowland and Highland Leagues.  The East Region clubs should merge in with the established East of Scotland League feeder and the North Region assoc should lead their clubs into a North Association. It's fairly simple and straightforward.

The 'Junior' name could still be survived in the Scottish Junior Cup for non-licensed clubs below the LL and HL, if they wish to participate.  

 

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