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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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^^^circlejerk is an American expression that comes to mind. Ponder this. If you are all so wonderful, why were you not able to convince people on here that the Juniors were not in at tier 6 for 2019-20?
Not even sure what you're driving at here, and we're going over old ground. Circlejerk, wtf [emoji23]
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6 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

He's definitely seen me at some point during my career with that description..emoji39.png

To be fair, I wasn't too bad of a player (until an injury cut my career short 😭). But definitely not a typical "total football" player. I was a typical left-back who rarely got to the opponent's half of the pitch, but I was the kind of defender opponents hated to face. :) 

Edited by Marten
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I think it's reasonably fair for me to read the bold part of the below quote there, the one I was replying to, as apportioning blame to the EoS, at least partly, no? You literally said that its an issue of the EoS and LL making. [emoji4]
 
The second bold bits in your most recent reply: Perhaps I was a bit wordy (in order to give full detail) and expected you to read between the lines a bit, but you asked if discipline/fines is an issue for clubs in the East. I gave you an overview of what that issue actually is as discussed with RP and IM and what was proposed by the EoS clubs in attendance at the meeting. Given I didn't discuss fines once in that overview, I assumed you'd read between the lines that I was answering your question. It's not a showstopper and has never been raised as such by any of the EoS clubs (to my knowledge). Some the of LL clubs feel more strongly, as you would imagine, and given the EoS and LL league share office bearers there is going to be something of a unified view.
 
The only mention of discipline at all at the EoS meeting (that I can recall) was around suspensions, because the Juniors followed different rules for suspensions at that time. There was a (legitimate) concern that, for example, a player being sent off in a Junior game the week before a cup tie between a West and East/LL side may not have that player suspended where a team in the East or LL would in the same circumstances, because of the rule differences. That issue was put to bed by RP with the confirmation that the West Region (Juniors in their entirety actually) would follow the JPP for all competitions, including the Junior Cup, so suspension rules would be universal. This appears to be happening now.
 
I don't even recall fines being mentioned, if it was it was a side issue. As I said, the main issue was the competing league in a region that already has a feeder. TJ made that an issue and made sure it stayed one with the West/East all or nothing.
 
On the subject of fines, if I were still at a West club, I might be asking why I have to pay out fines when no-one else in the pyramid I am hoping to move to, from the poorest to the richest clubs in the country, has to. I'd be asking what that money funds, how other leagues can operate and offer more to their clubs without that revenue stream and in turn what value I am getting for that outlay. But I'm not, so I'll leave that for you to decide.
 
Fun fact though, around 5 seasons of no fines in the EoS versus what we used to pay in the Juniors will cover the cost of our new toilet block. [emoji14] We're ~20% of the way there!
 
 


Fair point regarding my original post. I should have worded it different in terms of it looking like I was apportioning blame. It wasn’t meant that way it was more meant that it was brought up by the EOS reps which made it sound like it was a line in the sand for the west coming on board.

I am well informed of what was said at the EOS meeting so I didn’t need the reply (but I appreciate what your did thanks) I was wondering why it was raised as an issue and if it was a line in the sand. In another threat it was mentioned that the fines could be an issue. If there not that’s great and hopefully we can move towards an integrated pyramid (although I doubt it and we will need a breakaway!!)
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There was absolutely no objections to the West coming on board for this season, none.  There were concerns over discipline and that was partly addressed, but you need to look elsewhere for reasons as to why the West aren't in the Pyramid right now.
Did the SJFA only want the West to come on board along with the ERJFA? if so, that was always a non-starter, and will remain so.


I understand and most people understand wha happened too. No need to go over old ground!!!
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I understand and most people understand wha happened too. No need to go over old ground!!!
You raised it again, hence me going over old ground. Let's look forward, you mention breakaway may be needed in west, what gives you that impression?
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You raised it again, hence me going over old ground. Let's look forward, you mention breakaway may be needed in west, what gives you that impression?


No I raised the fines not wanting to going over the SJFA part of it (which is accepted as flawed by many people). I’m deeply troubled by how the SJFA have handled this.

I just don’t see how this East issue is resolved. Both sides seem intrenched in their positions as is their prerogative and it leaves the West in limbo. As I have said many times now I think West clubs will leave it until Christmas and see where things are and I bet many are wary of trusting the SJFA to provide clear information to clubs. Again as I have said before it will take a big west club or clubs to jump to make the others do it. One way that might happen is if the Scottish cup carrot was removed from the juniors then some of the big boys might jump.
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No I raised the fines not wanting to going over the SJFA part of it (which is accepted as flawed by many people). I’m deeply troubled by how the SJFA have handled this.

I just don’t see how this East issue is resolved. Both sides seem intrenched in their positions as is their prerogative and it leaves the West in limbo. As I have said many times now I think West clubs will leave it until Christmas and see where things are and I bet many are wary of trusting the SJFA to provide clear information to clubs. Again as I have said before it will take a big west club or clubs to jump to make the others do it. One way that might happen is if the Scottish cup carrot was removed from the juniors then some of the big boys might jump.
The answer has always been fairly straightforward, to be fair. ERSJFA even made it easier by splitting North & South.

But personally I think we are beyond all this now, as I and others have said before. If this is left to the same people again this year, self interest will win out again and we'll be in the same place this time next year.

Cleanest way in my opinion is a new West and Tayside League in the pyramid (if there's an appetite for the latter), filled by application. SJFA continue to run a North, East and West Junior setup outside of the Pyramid.

Any clubs who want to play in the Pyramid apply to the East, West, Tayside or South league's inside it. Any clubs who want to stay Junior, stay Junior in the North, East or West Juniors.

No one forced to do anything they don't want to.
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18 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

...Again as I have said before it will take a big west club or clubs to jump to make the others do it. One way that might happen is if the Scottish cup carrot was removed from the juniors then some of the big boys might jump.

The problem is jump to where? The SFA need to agree to any change to the LL entry playoff and would have to sanction any new WoSFA. It's not clear that they will do that. It was easier to do in the east because the EoS already had all those approvals and the ability to accept new member as they see fit. An opportunity was missed at the SJFA and WRSJFA AGMs, because that's where clubs needed to get the issues related to the PWG negotiations sorted out.

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2 hours ago, gaz5 said:

The answer has always been fairly straightforward, to be fair. ERSJFA even made it easier by splitting North & South.

But personally I think we are beyond all this now, as I and others have said before. If this is left to the same people again this year, self interest will win out again and we'll be in the same place this time next year.

Cleanest way in my opinion is a new West and Tayside League in the pyramid (if there's an appetite for the latter), filled by application. SJFA continue to run a North, East and West Junior setup outside of the Pyramid.

Any clubs who want to play in the Pyramid apply to the East, West, Tayside or South league's inside it. Any clubs who want to stay Junior, stay Junior in the North, East or West Juniors.

No one forced to do anything they don't want to.

I agree with your "cleanest way" assessment, which should bring this matter to a conclusion in time for 2020/21.

The PWG needs to make it clear that IF the SJFA continues to link the West juniors' pyramid entry, to the situation in the East juniors, then the SFA will advise the juniors that this will not be accepted for next season and beyond. The "Tayside/East" region is an entirely separate matter/problem, which  needs a different/unrelated PWG led solution, involving the Highland League.

The SFA would then invite invitations from West clubs  (also open to the remaining West Lothian junior clubs) to join a new West "senior" league for 2020/21, .... at Tier 6.. For one season only, the new league would be administered jointly by the SFA and the Lowland League, thereafter determining its own management structure.

For the reasons suggested by gaz5, the carrot of the Scottish Cup should be withdrawn from all 3 junior league champions from 2020/21 and beyond, as these clubs will have decided to remain junior, and not therefore to commit to the pyramid.  This would give junior clubs a clear  opportunity to join the pyramid, or to remain junior.

As an aside, I would recommend that the winners of the SJFA Junior Cup would however, retain its Scottish Cup entry entitlement, alongside that of the Scottish Amateur Cup Winners. 

Yes, "no one is forced to do anything they don't want to", as it would be their choice. 

 

Edited by Robert James
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4 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I agree with your "cleanest way" assessment, which should bring this matter to a conclusion in time for 2020/21.

The PWG needs to make it clear that IF the SJFA continues to link the West juniors' pyramid entry, to the situation in the East juniors, then the SFA will advise the juniors that this will not be accepted for next season and beyond. The "Tayside/East" region is an entirely separate matter/problem, which  needs a different/unrelated PWG led solution, involving the Highland League.

The SFA would then invite invitations from West clubs  (also open to the remaining West Lothian junior clubs) to join a new West "senior" league for 2020/21, .... at Tier 6.. For one season only, the new league would be administered jointly by the SFA and the Lowland League, thereafter determining its own management structure.

For the reasons suggested by gaz5, the carrot of the Scottish Cup should be withdrawn from all 3 junior league champions from 2020/21 and beyond, as these clubs will have decided to remain junior, and not therefore to commit to the pyramid.  This would give junior clubs a clear  opportunity to join the pyramid, or to remain junior.

As an aside, I would recommend that the winners of the SJFA Junior Cup would however, retain its Scottish Cup entry entitlement, alongside that of the Scottish Amateur Cup Winners. 

Yes, "no one is forced to do anything they don't want to", as it would be their choice. 

 

Why should West Lothian clubs be invited to join a future new West League, when their area is covered by the EoS, where there are already 3 WL members, and WL Junior clubs can apply for membership of that league at anytime? that just creates future problems.

I really can't see the PWG approaching anything differently from last season, or any real progress being made with new solutions. The same people will be round the table, and TJ will still be trying to keep his fiefdom intact.

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15 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I agree with your "cleanest way" assessment, which should bring this matter to a conclusion in time for 2020/21.

The PWG needs to make it clear that IF the SJFA continues to link the West juniors' pyramid entry, to the situation in the East juniors, then the SFA will advise the juniors that this will not be accepted for next season and beyond. The "Tayside/East" region is an entirely separate matter/problem, which  needs a different/unrelated PWG led solution, involving the Highland League.

The SFA would then invite invitations from West clubs  (also open to the remaining West Lothian junior clubs) to join a new West "senior" league for 2020/21, .... at Tier 6.. For one season only, the new league would be administered jointly by the SFA and the Lowland League, thereafter determining its own management structure.

For the reasons suggested by gaz5, the carrot of the Scottish Cup should be withdrawn from all 3 junior league champions from 2020/21 and beyond, as these clubs will have decided to remain junior, and not therefore to commit to the pyramid.  This would give junior clubs a clear  opportunity to join the pyramid, or to remain junior.

As an aside, I would recommend that the winners of the SJFA Junior Cup would however, retain its Scottish Cup entry entitlement, alongside that of the Scottish Amateur Cup Winners. 

Yes, "no one is forced to do anything they don't want to", as it would be their choice.

Anyone who read the minutes for PWG meetings that circulated on here last season should have noticed that the SFA were siding with the SJFA's posture and not with the EoS. It is not safe to assume that the SFA will do any of that. 

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6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Anyone who read the minutes for PWG meetings that circulated on here last season should have noticed that the SFA were siding with the SJFA's posture and not with the EoS. It is not safe to assume that the SFA will do any of that. 

You're right, it was frustrating to read the minutes and think that the SFA, if they had the power, would throw their weight behind such a dog's dinner of a proposal  .... but do you think that will still be the case after the EoS meeting that "clarified" a few misapprehensions for Petrie and Maxwell? I guess it could go a couple of different ways and they could throw their weight instead behind a sensible integration of SJFA clubs that addresses the geography and other issues OR they could decide it's all too difficult to deal with and just let time be the decider.

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We'll see what happens over the next few months basically. I seriously doubt that this is a top priority for Petrie and Maxwell, so my gut instinct on this is that they'll probably not do anything too radical. If change will only happen through consensus there are plenty of vested interests that could see this drag on for a few years going nowhere fast. Hope I'm wrong.

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We'll see what happens over the next few months basically. I seriously doubt that this is a top priority for Petrie and Maxwell, so my gut instinct on this is that they'll probably not do anything too radical. If change will only happen through consensus there are plenty of vested interests that could see this drag on for a few years going nowhere fast. Hope I'm wrong.
Nail squarely on the head for me.

This is so far down the priority list for the SFA that path of least resistance is likely what they will support.

I'll give RP and IM a bit of credit, they only had one documented "plan" to review last year as no alternative was put forward. They backed what they saw as "the only deal on the table" as a result, not realising how much of a clusterfuck it was.

When they came to the EoS meeting they thought they knew what the issues were and in their defence at least brought a few potential solutions to what they perceived then to be.

But they found out on the night that their understanding of the issues was somewhat lacking, as war their knowledge of the SFA's boundary rules (thinking that the EoS / LL were setting the boundary only to be corrected by the delegates that those organisations were merely sticking to them). As a result their proposed workarounds were, to be polite, unworkable and I think they realised that during the conversation.

It got heated in stages, but I think (at least I would hope) that they went away realising they'd been sold a lemon with the initial plan, a lemon that would only make lemonade for a small number of person.

With everything else that they have on, if someone puts forward a more workable solution, like the one above that retains the junior grade external to the pyramid but completes the regional requirement inside it, allowing teams to play where they want in either structure (which incidentally was a big part of RP's presentation, that we shouldn't be forcing teams into anything), I can't see his they don't see that as an easy win.

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4 hours ago, gaz5 said:

The answer has always been fairly straightforward, to be fair. ERSJFA even made it easier by splitting North & South.

 

Tayport and Scone are in the "North" part of the split though, so not quite as straight forward as you suggest.

As are Luncarty albeit I forget whether they are actually north or south of the LL/HL line !!!

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3 minutes ago, superbigal said:

Tayport and Scone are in the "North" part of the split though, so not quite as straight forward as you suggest.

As are Luncarty albeit I forget whether they are actually north or south of the LL/HL line !!!

Luncarty village is below, their clubhouse/pitch is above. Personally I think all Perth and Kinross teams should be in the LL catchment and not a ‘line’ dictating it.

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Just read the first few pages [emoji106] after that it's just people repeating the same **** over and over again

Fairly new to the junior football community/scene/establishment/organisation can some one give us a summary of the 842 pages and what the pyramid is all about?
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