stanley Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said: In terms of relegation from the Lowland League the standing practice is that clubs nominate what league they want and all the leagues have to agree to it. That would be ridiculous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, gogsy said: Kelty's roots were in amateur football, same as Hill of Beath, Crossgates were underage originally, Dundonald Bluebell were amateur then juvenile. We were just shite, and have no right to try and improve oursleves 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 50 minutes ago, stanley said: That would be ridiculous. "The bottom club will be relegated to the League which will have been decided by the Boards of the three leagues prior to the start of each season." "the second bottom club will be relegated to the League which will have been decided by the Boards of the three leagues prior to the start of each season." That's how the wording is related to relegation from the Lowland League at the moment. With no boundaries it seems common sense and would do if all 4 leagues operated at the same level as some suggest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Hillonearth said: I think the main reason it's been on the back burner in the West in recent months is the fact that clubs over here understood that they were joining from Tier 6 down in the pyramid next season in an orderly move. Were that now not to happen, I think we'll see a repeat of last year's East exodus to a breakaway league, I'd imagine initially under EoS auspices - much like last season very few will show their hand immediately, but will wait to see the dominoes start falling. In this scenario there will be some holdouts for sure - maybe even some high-profile ones - but most clubs are run by pragmatists who I imagine will see the writing on the wall. A year ago, David Baxter offered to organise the set up of a West League. As Secretary of the Lowland and the East of Scotland Leagues, he has the experience to get it off the ground, and once it was established (as I understand it), the intention was to hand over the reigns to the West league to appoint their own officer bearers. No such offer was made in relation to a (new) league for junior clubs north of the SFA Tay boundary, so this remains a separate stumbling block, yet to be resolved.. I am not sure if DB's West league offer still stands, but if it does, a breakaway West of Scotland league could be formed quickly (as was the Lowland League when it was created) and probably in time for 2019/20. However the clock is ticking, and some decisions are needed quickly. IMO the Highland/Lowland boundary is very unlikely to be changed by the SFA or the SPFL, either now, or in the near future, so as things strand, the clubs north of the Tay need to organise their own 'feeder' league if/when they wish to join the pyramid. Has the Highland League been consulted about having promotion from the North Region Juniors, the north Tayside juniors, and the NCL ? Likewise does the HFL support the relegation of its member clubs ? I've not heard anything regarding this matter. To me, it is obvious that at present there is NO FORMAL AGREEMENT in place about pyramid changes for next season. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNU_Linux Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 A year ago, David Baxter offered to organise the set up of a West League. As Secretary of the Lowland and the East of Scotland Leagues, he has the experience to get it off the ground, and once it was established (as I understand it), the intention was to hand over the reigns to the West league to appoint their own officer bearers. No such offer was made in relation to a (new) league for junior clubs north of the SFA Tay boundary, so this remains a separate stumbling block, yet to be resolved.. I am not sure if DB's West league offer still stands, but if it does, a breakaway West of Scotland league could be formed quickly (as was the Lowland League when it was created) and probably in time for 2019/20. However the clock is ticking, and some decisions are needed quickly. IMO the Highland/Lowland boundary is very unlikely to be changed by the SFA or the SPFL, either now, or in the near future, so as things strand, the clubs north of the Tay need to organise their own 'feeder' league if/when they wish to join the pyramid. Has the Highland League been consulted about having promotion from the North Region Juniors, the north Tayside juniors, and the NCL ? Likewise does the HFL support the relegation of its member clubs ? I've not heard anything regarding this matter. To me, it is obvious that at present there is NO FORMAL AGREEMENT in place about pyramid changes for next season. iirc up north the HL has said its membership ever reached 20 then it'd split into 2 divisions of 10. Issue is however only Banks O'Dee are licensed & other NRJFA are unable to because of being in an affiliate association rather than one in full sfa membership. Its probably not going to happen but theoretically the HL could absorb the NRJFA and use its structure for a HL2, HL3 etc. Based on what I've been told the grade loyalty you see in the west/east is less common as movement between grades is way more common (a fair few NRJFA members have origins in juvenile, amateur & welfare + some HL members have history in those plus junior) so getting the NRJFA to merge into the HL may be paltable. In the north however its unique in that the senior league has always been stronger without arguement vs its junior counterpart. Ofc whether the HL would want to do this is another question in of itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 5 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said: iirc up north the HL has said its membership ever reached 20 then it'd split into 2 divisions of 10. Issue is however only Banks O'Dee are licensed & other NRJFA are unable to because of being in an affiliate association rather than one in full sfa membership. Its probably not going to happen but theoretically the HL could absorb the NRJFA and use its structure for a HL2, HL3 etc. Based on what I've been told the grade loyalty you see in the west is less common as movement between grades is way more common (a fair few NRJFA members have origins in juvenile, amateur & welfare + some HL members have history in those plus junior) so getting the NRJFA to merge into the HL may be paltable. In the north however its unique in that the senior league has always been stronger without arguement vs its junior counterpart. Ofc whether the HL would want to do this is another question in of itself. From an outsider's perspective, the HFL have always seemed the most protectionist of the non-league seniors, who when looking to bring new teams in seem more interested in preserving the traditional Highlands proper/North East balance in their league rather than letting it naturally shift towards an Aberdeenshire-heavy setup even though that's where most of the people (and thus also players and fans) in their jurisdiction actually live. Just looking at the current SJFA North Superleague tables just there - any of the current top three could step into the Highland League tomorrow and do a job. Moreover, they're all now playing in up-to-date grounds...Banks O'Dee at Spain Park, Bridge of Don at Aberdeen Sports Village and Montrose Roselea at Links Park... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNU_Linux Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 From an outsider's perspective, the HFL have always seemed the most protectionist of the non-league seniors, who when looking to bring new teams in seem more interested in preserving the traditional Highlands proper/North East balance in their league rather than letting it naturally shift towards an Aberdeenshire-heavy setup even though that's where most of the people (and thus also players and fans) in their jurisdiction actually live. Just looking at the current SJFA North Superleague tables just there - any of the current top three could step into the Highland League tomorrow and do a job. Moreover, they're all now playing in up-to-date grounds...Banks O'Dee at Spain Park, Bridge of Don at Aberdeen Sports Village and Montrose Roselea at Links Park...Aberdeen Uni as well would fall into this category as they play out of Hillhead Sports Centre (which they also own) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said: 18 minutes ago, Hillonearth said: From an outsider's perspective, the HFL have always seemed the most protectionist of the non-league seniors, who when looking to bring new teams in seem more interested in preserving the traditional Highlands proper/North East balance in their league rather than letting it naturally shift towards an Aberdeenshire-heavy setup even though that's where most of the people (and thus also players and fans) in their jurisdiction actually live. Just looking at the current SJFA North Superleague tables just there - any of the current top three could step into the Highland League tomorrow and do a job. Moreover, they're all now playing in up-to-date grounds...Banks O'Dee at Spain Park, Bridge of Don at Aberdeen Sports Village and Montrose Roselea at Links Park... Aberdeen Uni as well would fall into this category as they play out of Hillhead Sports Centre (which they also own) There's quite a few really - the likes of Dyce and even Culter play in grounds that aren't that far off the standard of the more undeveloped ones in the Highland League. Admittedly, there are a fair few in the North Region that play on what are essentially railed-off pitches, but there are more than enough don't that any of the perennial bottom markers in the HFL would be looking over their shoulders if it was ever opened up. Unfortunately, it's also painfully obvious that all of them are based in Aberdeen and points south, which of course eventually would lead to a much more Aberdeen-centric league than they have at the moment. The counter argument can be made however that that's the area they purport to cover, so maybe it should be more representative of the demographics than it currently is... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCamelonfan Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Hillonearth said: There's quite a few really - the likes of Dyce and even Culter play in grounds that aren't that far off the standard of the more undeveloped ones in the Highland League. Admittedly, there are a fair few in the North Region that play on what are essentially railed-off pitches, but there are more than enough don't that any of the perennial bottom markers in the HFL would be looking over their shoulders if it was ever opened up. Unfortunately, it's also painfully obvious that all of them are based in Aberdeen and points south, which of course eventually would lead to a much more Aberdeen-centric league than they have at the moment. The counter argument can be made however that that's the area they purport to cover, so maybe it should be more representative of the demographics than it currently is... They could expand two leagues of 10 highland league north and south 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwl123 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Hillonearth said: From an outsider's perspective, the HFL have always seemed the most protectionist of the non-league seniors, who when looking to bring new teams in seem more interested in preserving the traditional Highlands proper/North East balance in their league rather than letting it naturally shift towards an Aberdeenshire-heavy setup even though that's where most of the people (and thus also players and fans) in their jurisdiction actually live. Just looking at the current SJFA North Superleague tables just there - any of the current top three could step into the Highland League tomorrow and do a job. Moreover, they're all now playing in up-to-date grounds...Banks O'Dee at Spain Park, Bridge of Don at Aberdeen Sports Village and Montrose Roselea at Links Park... I can see how the perception of the SHFL being protectionist is made out to be but the SHFL is in favour of the pyramid but one of the biggest stumbling blocks to the integration of the SJFA North, the NCL and the SJFA tayside clubs is the requirement for floodlights due to the number of league fixtures, as well as local association cup ties that are played mid week. A lot of the NCL and SJFA North clubs are unable/unwilling to spend the money on floodlights or the additional costs of travel to the highlands and beyond on a regular basis. While there is a gulf in standards with the exception of one or two North clubs and some of the Tayside teams (who in fairness should be part of the Highland League pyramid judging by how Rugby organizes itself) teams will eventually find their level within the system so the current gulf in standards can be accounted for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 11 minutes ago, dwl123 said: I can see how the perception of the SHFL being protectionist is made out to be but the SHFL is in favour of the pyramid but one of the biggest stumbling blocks to the integration of the SJFA North, the NCL and the SJFA tayside clubs is the requirement for floodlights due to the number of league fixtures, as well as local association cup ties that are played mid week. A lot of the NCL and SJFA North clubs are unable/unwilling to spend the money on floodlights or the additional costs of travel to the highlands and beyond on a regular basis. While there is a gulf in standards with the exception of one or two North clubs and some of the Tayside teams (who in fairness should be part of the Highland League pyramid judging by how Rugby organizes itself) teams will eventually find their level within the system so the current gulf in standards can be accounted for. It is an issue that there never seem to be any more than half a dozen genuinely strong sides in the North Juniors, but if there is to be a genuine pyramid implemented both they and the NCL need to eventually be incorporated somehow....perhaps with the NCL absorbing some of the Junior sides closer to their area of operations to even up the numbers somewhat in order to form a SHFL 2 west , and a SHFL 2 east centred around Aberdeen. Champions of those subject to ground suitability could play off against the SHFL bottom team. Or Fort William as we call them. Granted at the moment there are only a limited proportion of grounds that could support SHFL football, but the sine qua non of a pyramid is that there needs to at least be the potential of movement. The midweek logjams could easily be alleviated by ditching some of the superfluous cups, as the Juniors have already done. It is a chicken and egg situation at the moment for sure regarding the Tayside teams, who will have no intentions whatsoever of signing up for a league that at the moment extends no further south than Nigg. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mantis Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, dwl123 said: I can see how the perception of the SHFL being protectionist is made out to be but the SHFL is in favour of the pyramid but one of the biggest stumbling blocks to the integration of the SJFA North, the NCL and the SJFA tayside clubs is the requirement for floodlights due to the number of league fixtures, as well as local association cup ties that are played mid week. A lot of the NCL and SJFA North clubs are unable/unwilling to spend the money on floodlights or the additional costs of travel to the highlands and beyond on a regular basis. While there is a gulf in standards with the exception of one or two North clubs and some of the Tayside teams (who in fairness should be part of the Highland League pyramid judging by how Rugby organizes itself) teams will eventually find their level within the system so the current gulf in standards can be accounted for. There’s a sort of circular argument that the HL needs floodlights to fulfill the 34 fixtures, while the SFA has been agitating for 16 teams and 30 games like the LL and other leagues, which then brings back the protectionist argument. Indeed I would suggest that 16 is the optimum size, leading to the sort of upheaval we are seeing in the LL, which can only become fairer as the ex juniors replace the weaker LL clubs. Edited January 8, 2019 by The Mantis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 07/01/2019 at 16:30, glensmad said: I think a lot of clubs are "watching with interest" to see who blinks first. The clock is running down, so if there is currently no agreed pyramid outcome for the West, is a 'breakaway' likely or even feasible for 2019/20 ? Also who are the dozen or so ex-junior, now EoSL clubs, who applied for a licence before the 1/1/19 'deadline' for the new SFA rules ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glensmad Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 The clock is running down, so if there is currently no agreed pyramid outcome for the West, is a 'breakaway' likely or even feasible for 2019/20 ?I'd be surprised. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 4 hours ago, Hillonearth said: It is an issue that there never seem to be any more than half a dozen genuinely strong sides in the North Juniors, but if there is to be a genuine pyramid implemented both they and the NCL need to eventually be incorporated somehow....perhaps with the NCL absorbing some of the Junior sides closer to their area of operations to even up the numbers somewhat in order to form a SHFL 2 west , and a SHFL 2 east centred around Aberdeen. Champions of those subject to ground suitability could play off against the SHFL bottom team. Or Fort William as we call them. Granted at the moment there are only a limited proportion of grounds that could support SHFL football, but the sine qua non of a pyramid is that there needs to at least be the potential of movement. The midweek logjams could easily be alleviated by ditching some of the superfluous cups, as the Juniors have already done. It is a chicken and egg situation at the moment for sure regarding the Tayside teams, who will have no intentions whatsoever of signing up for a league that at the moment extends no further south than Nigg. Now, now. Play nice! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, Jacksgranda said: Now, now. Play nice! I suppose there was that one season Rothes shipped knocking on 200 goals, but any other year it's a fair assumption 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Highland seem to have always been wary of any further 'city' teams coming in to dilute their current product (see Banks o' Dee being omitted in favour of two lower division teams). The big issue though is the players hail in number from Aberdeen so further clubs in that area makes it very competitive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Reading on FitbaNorth the recollection was that Fortmartine United put in an application pretty much out of the blue ahead of the 2009/10 season. Keep in mind the HFL had been at 15 teams since 2001/02 when Inverurie Loco Works joing up from the Juniors. So there was an apparent vacancy to get to an even 16 for a number of years. Then once Formartine United's application was more widely known the additional applications came along. So it wasn't like the HFL had a recruitment drive for new members. The ability to apply is still part of their constitution. And with floodlights now standardised as part of licensing the increased barriers to entry the HFL had over the LL don't seem to apply anymore. The main deterrents they have now to speculative applications is the geography of existing members and the fact that they would try to run as a 19 or 20 team division before splitting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestman54 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 07/01/2019 at 15:40, Vollyman said: The done deal has included the playoffs,each year the West of Scotland champions will play the ERJFA champions the winners will then play the winners of EOS and SOS to decide who is promoted to the LL (this subject to clubs who meet entry rules to the LL) Read the previous texts. It has to be agreed by the SPFL, LL, EOS AND SOS. That has NOT happened. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 The main deterrents they have now to speculative applications is the geography of existing members and the fact that they would try to run as a 19 or 20 team division before splitting.I wonder what position the HL is in to refuse applications if the applicant is licensed. If Banks o' dee applied do they have to be accepted? What if a tayside club got licensed? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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