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Burnie_man

Junior football, what is the future?

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Just now, Deeside Dynamo said:

Whether credible or not the others mentioned still got up of their arse and completed the licensing process, probably at some considerable cost, and to the detriment of their on field ambitions when some of the junior clubs mentioned turned their nose up at it.  You reap what you sow.

Are you still living in the past? I'm discussing now and the future, not 5 years ago. Junior clubs will be preparing for  licenses in the next year.  It's the situation 12 months from now which is relevant - not 5 years ago.

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There is nobody to blame here other the TJ. It was through  his arrogance that he quickly dismissed the notion of the Juniors joining the LL when it was set up. This has all came back to bite him, and the grade, on the backside. He cannot now expect the same people he snubbed to now roll over and give him what we he wants.

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Final attempt was a North/South/East/West split...

5adf52149e6c1_N-S-E-WTraditional.png.f50572950be45ad31f43bb0f1f762ecd.png

As we've already seen with the SoS league having possible parity with a West league (and the EoS) it seems a right sham considering their population. But just dropping Lanarkshire and Ayrshire into the south...

5adf520ec572c_N-S-E-WRedux.png.487462685eea6e553d6127e070927819.png
5adf5208bb747_N-S-E-WReduxMap.thumb.png.345f6ee74a86399a18a3b2839ae36d69.png
(Borders is supposed to be Orange in that map at the end. Apologies for that f**k up)

A geographic split which is equal on both population and area. Travel is fairly straight forward for all (apart from Fort William as always) and a few Tayside clubs might be huffy about trips North but, f**k 'em, such is life.

Also these areas can be split further geographically at lower tiers (Ayrshire/Lanarkshire/D&G for south, North/South for East and the same kinda split for North)

Go on, admit it, it's a beezer of a set up.

Right. I've wasted the last hour of work. You can all get back to arguing about crowds and 100k toilets.

Edited by AsimButtHitsASix

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2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The only current Junior clubs that can be Licenced in a years time to enter the "top 32" shootout are those joining the EoS, and I already mentioned that 4 or 5 of them could be in that position.  I forgot to add Linlithgow to the list.

That is simply not true. The SFA decides on licensing arrangements. They can start on the licensing of junior clubs from their next meeting if they so wish. It is quite probable that they will obviously require commitment or even entry into an SFA league before the licence is valid but to say they cannot be licensed for 2019-20 is just plain wrong.

After all, aren't we being told that Blackburn and Dalkeith are having their licences processed?They are as much junior teams as Pollok and Bo'ness.

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4 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Are you still living in the past? I'm discussing now and the future, not 5 years ago. Junior clubs will be preparing for  licenses in the next year.  It's the situation 12 months from now which is relevant - not 5 years ago.

12 months from now all those clubs I listed will still be full SFA Licenced Members, and Talbot wont.   So they get first dibs in your expanded LL.

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1 minute ago, Khufu2 said:

That is simply not true. The SFA decides on licensing arrangements. They can start on the licensing of junior clubs from their next meeting if they so wish. It is quite probable that they will obviously require commitment or even entry into an SFA league before the licence is valid but to say they cannot be licensed for 2019-20 is just plain wrong.

After all, aren't we being told that Blackburn and Dalkeith are having their licences processed?They are as much junior teams as Pollok and Bo'ness.

Of course it's true, only clubs participating in the Pyramid can get Licenced, Blackburn and Dalkeith are joining the Pyramid. Jeezo!

Edited by Burnie_man

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1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

12 months from now all those clubs I listed will still be full SFA Licenced Members, and Talbot wont.   So they get first dibs in your expanded LL.

You quite simply do not know that. You are making it up as you go along.

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Just now, Burnie_man said:

Of course it's true, only clubs participating in the Pyramid can get Licenced.

Oh dear. The SFA decides the basis on which licences are issued.  They can change the rules at their next meeting if it fits in with their pyramid plans.

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You quite simply do not know that. You are making it up as you go along.

I think you're the one who has been indulging in fantasy all aftermoon

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2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:


I think you're the one who has been indulging in fantasy all aftermoon emoji23.png

This is the one who keeps addressing me as Isa and thinks I care about Talbot. You couldn't make it up.

Edited by Khufu2

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This is the one who keeps addressing me as Isa and thinks I care about Talbot. You couldn't make it up.

Oh I think thats less fantastical than what you might happen to the Pyramid

 

Then again, maybe Dipplebevvy or Weegieboy has returned

 

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21 minutes ago, Baxter's Nutmeg said:

There is nobody to blame here other the TJ. It was through  his arrogance that he quickly dismissed the notion of the Juniors joining the LL when it was set up. This has all came back to bite him, and the grade, on the backside. He cannot now expect the same people he snubbed to now roll over and give him what we he wants.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/junior-football-chiefs-considering-plan-3116939

The thinking from SJFA Towers during the LL's first season.

Edited by cmontheloknow

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9 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Oh I think thats less fantastical than what you might happen to the Pyramid emoji23.png

 

Then again, maybe Dipplebevvy or Weegieboy has returned emoji15.png

 

Not what I think might happen. What I think should happen. Do keep up.

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24 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Of course it's true, only clubs participating in the Pyramid can get Licenced, Blackburn and Dalkeith are joining the Pyramid. Jeezo!

Oh really? Did I miss the EOS AGM?

I think you mean they have applied.

 

Still inhabiting your little fantasy world, I see.

Edited by Khufu2

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1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

What we all should keep in mind is that the pyramid group will collectively decide the future/resolution to the matter. It won't simply be the sjfa and SFA putting proposals into place. Plans will be drawn, negotiations had and a collective vote/agreement had. 

The reason I say this is that the Highland league, lowland league won't want another feeder league at tier 5.....there are already two and there is no need for another. In the west there would appear to be a gap at tier 6, so it would make sense to have the west juniors as tier 6 there alongside the sosfl and eosfl. In the east there is already a recognised and established league at tier 6 and no requirement for another, I would expect the juniors in the East to move at tier 7.

However, any agreement reached will include a 6 way agreement with the hfl, slfl, SFA, eosfl, sjfa and the sosfl. As for the sjfa, they would have to ballot their members and gain agreement to move forward with anything that is proposed. Not a quick or easy process by any means. 

With the best will in the world, there clearly is merit and a need for another Tier 5 league in the south. Once the clubs in the south are all on board you can't just continue to pretend that the Highlands merit the same level of opportunity as the Lowlands when it's going to be very obvious that the strength in depth of the Lowlands will far outstrip the Highlands. That position doesn't exist yet but in 5 years time it most certainly will. 

In 5 years, a HFL with the likes of Strathspey or Rothes lurking at Tier 5 will be massively inferior in depth of quality to 2 leagues south of the Tay. 

As things stand, the current structure is right. 

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Why are there discrepancies between first two versions of the SFA Board Meeting of 19th April, 2018? Presumably because the SFA man was at the meeting and the SJFA man wasn’t. 

(All three emails are together at the foot of this post for quick reference)

[a] Firstly there is the communication from the SFA Official about the meeting. Then there is the first email from the SJFA to certain (perhaps all?) East Region Junior Clubs following the meeting.

The SFA communication refers to “specific concerns … raised …..by one of their members.” Presumably this was the SJFA and refers to “ongoing uncertainty around finding a pyramid solution to bring the Juniors into the fold.”  However, it is, indeed, a concern that the SJFA seems to have had such a long-term uncertainty about any Pyramid system which is outside their control, even though they have operated three regional ones of their own for many years.

[c] It then refers to the acceptance of two new Full Member clubs which have now been referred to Club Licencing – Presumably Lothian Thistle HV and Heriott Watt University(?) – with the decisions on their Club Licences scheduled for the 23rd April meeting. These decisions are scheduled to be verified to the clubs up to three days later – on or by 26th April.

[d] If it is these two clubs, they are SFA Registered Clubs moving to Full Membership status in accordance with the SFA’s Articles of Association. This is nothing to do with Registered Clubs switching leagues and Associations. Such clubs remain free to do that if they wish. If they then seek promotion e.g. to the Lowland or Highland Leagues, they will need to obtain Full Membership and a Club Licence – just as LTHV and HWU (?) are presumed to have done as above. The paperwork, any ground works, etc will take time but the next deadline for that would be the application for Full Membership and Club Licence in time for the 2019/20 season.

[e] The SFA Board appears to have put the SJFA “on the spot” to come up with a system which works for all interested parties by as early as July 2018. This would, necessarily, have to include a satisfactory future for those remaining 55 – 60 Junior clubs which didn’t vote for any pyramid, and for the north of Tay Eastern Juniors, etc .

[f]  This would then give the Pyramid Working Group the best part of 12 months to consider the SJFA proposals, and any others which may have been put forward, in order to come to an agreed solution, satisfactory to all parties, which bring those Junior clubs that wish to do so into the fold for 2019/20. Perhaps, with the EoS League willing to go to 32 teams in 2018/19, this is infact the first step towards EoS/East Region Juniors integration. This would take in nearly half of the south of Tay East Region Juniors followed by the remainder in 2019/20. The future of the north of Tay clubs remains to be resolved but needs to be dealt with urgently.

[g] From the SJFA’s first email:

To confirm: The Board of the Scottish FA have agreed in principle to the Juniors entering the Pyramid at Tier 6 with possible target for  implementation commencing season 18/19. There will also be a moratorium on applications for Scottish FA membership and Club Licensing whilst discussions are ongoing re Pyramid integration.

[h] From the SJFA stand-point they are working to a tight dead-line (possible target for  implementation commencing season 18/19). That fits with [e] above but it is far from the end of the matter. (see [f] above)

“Moratorium on applications for Scottish FA membership and Club Licensing”. OK. A potential delay of  just one meeting whilst the SJFA comes up with a workable solution for consideration by the Pyramid Working Group and the SFA Board. There could be additional delay if the SJFA doesn’t succeed but the ball is firmly in their court to properly engage with the process. If they fail then the Pyramid fails to expand into the current Junior ranks save for those which may have lost patience and moved on. The ball then returns to the Pyramid Working group to just get on with it. No more chances for the SJFA to integrate en masse, sadly.

The three emails were apparently as follows:

(I) SFA

"Subject: Pyramid Group

Further to the above, there has been a considerable amount of conjecture since last Thursday’s Scottish FA Board meeting re this matter and, accordingly, I thought it would be helpful to clarify exactly what the Board agreed.

The Board of the Scottish FA discussed the matters that have been considered at the two Pyramid working groups with the most recent one having been chaired by myself. They also considered certain specific concerns in this context that were raised with them by one of their members. Finally they considered two requests for Scottish FA membership applications both of which were accepted and have now been referred to the licensing administration to progress in the normal course.

Given the ongoing uncertainty around finding a pyramid solution to bring the Juniors into the fold and the number of junior members that appear to be leaving without knowing what the pyramid solution is, it was agreed unanimously by the Scottish FA Board that it would not take any more membership applications until such time as this matter is resolved. This ensures that all clubs are able to make informed decisions in the full knowledge of what the future landscape looks like; something that they are unable to do at present.

The Scottish FA President will be chairing this and will be reconvening the pyramid working group in early course to take this forward. It is his and the Board of the Scottish FA’s wish that this can be resolved over the Summer allowing clubs to know what the situation is prior to the start of next season (noting that if any structural changes are agreed these would not come in until season 19-20). If matters are resolved in this timescale it will only be one Board meeting (June) where the Board are not considering applications for membership which should not cause any issues for clubs given the length of time it then takes to work through the process to gain full membership.

Alan, will be in touch in early course to set up a meeting.

Kind regards

Andrew McKinlay

Interim Chief Executive

Scottish Football Association

 

 (II)  SJFA

I’ve only had informal notification as yet. Andrew McKinlay the Interim CEO is out today so it will be Monday before I catch up with him. However my source of information was at the meeting so it is “kosher”

Once I have received confirmation in writing or verbally from Andrew I will put out a formal notification to clubs.

To confirm: The Board of the Scottish FA have agreed in principle to the Juniors entering the Pyramid at Tier 6 with possible target for  implementation commencing season 18/19. There will also be a moratorium on applications for Scottish FA membership and Club Licensing whilst discussions are ongoing re Pyramid integration.

Hope this helps. If you need anything further please let me know.

Regards

Tom Johnston

Scottish Junior FA

 

 (III)  SJFA

Gents

For information. Would have liked the response to be more robust however the information I have is that we are heading in the direction that will see us join the Pyramid – subject to an EGM – at a level no worse off than the EOS/SOS

Regards

Tom Johnston
Scottish Junior FA

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To sum up, eh?

So are the teams that are looking to go, off to the EoS or not? (AGM still to come)

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15 minutes ago, Dev said:

Why are there discrepancies between first two versions of the SFA Board Meeting of 19th April, 2018? Presumably because the SFA man was at the meeting and the SJFA man wasn’t. 

(All three emails are together at the foot of this post for quick reference)

[a] Firstly there is the communication from the SFA Official about the meeting. Then there is the first email from the SJFA to certain (perhaps all?) East Region Junior Clubs following the meeting.

The SFA communication refers to “specific concerns … raised …..by one of their members.” Presumably this was the SJFA and refers to “ongoing uncertainty around finding a pyramid solution to bring the Juniors into the fold.”  However, it is, indeed, a concern that the SJFA seems to have had such a long-term uncertainty about any Pyramid system which is outside their control, even though they have operated three regional ones of their own for many years.

[c] It then refers to the acceptance of two new Full Member clubs which have now been referred to Club Licencing – Presumably Lothian Thistle HV and Heriott Watt University(?) – with the decisions on their Club Licences scheduled for the 23rd April meeting. These decisions are scheduled to be verified to the clubs up to three days later – on or by 26th April.

[d] If it is these two clubs, they are SFA Registered Clubs moving to Full Membership status in accordance with the SFA’s Articles of Association. This is nothing to do with Registered Clubs switching leagues and Associations. Such clubs remain free to do that if they wish. If they then seek promotion e.g. to the Lowland or Highland Leagues, they will need to obtain Full Membership and a Club Licence – just as LTHV and HWU (?) are presumed to have done as above. The paperwork, any ground works, etc will take time but the next deadline for that would be the application for Full Membership and Club Licence in time for the 2019/20 season.

[e] The SFA Board appears to have put the SJFA “on the spot” to come up with a system which works for all interested parties by as early as July 2018. This would, necessarily, have to include a satisfactory future for those remaining 55 – 60 Junior clubs which didn’t vote for any pyramid, and for the north of Tay Eastern Juniors, etc .

[f]  This would then give the Pyramid Working Group the best part of 12 months to consider the SJFA proposals, and any others which may have been put forward, in order to come to an agreed solution, satisfactory to all parties, which bring those Junior clubs that wish to do so into the fold for 2019/20. Perhaps, with the EoS League willing to go to 32 teams in 2018/19, this is infact the first step towards EoS/East Region Juniors integration. This would take in nearly half of the south of Tay East Region Juniors followed by the remainder in 2019/20. The future of the north of Tay clubs remains to be resolved but needs to be dealt with urgently.

[g] From the SJFA’s first email:

To confirm: The Board of the Scottish FA have agreed in principle to the Juniors entering the Pyramid at Tier 6 with possible target for  implementation commencing season 18/19. There will also be a moratorium on applications for Scottish FA membership and Club Licensing whilst discussions are ongoing re Pyramid integration.

[h] From the SJFA stand-point they are working to a tight dead-line (possible target for  implementation commencing season 18/19). That fits with [e] above but it is far from the end of the matter. (see [f] above)

“Moratorium on applications for Scottish FA membership and Club Licensing”. OK. A potential delay of  just one meeting whilst the SJFA comes up with a workable solution for consideration by the Pyramid Working Group and the SFA Board. There could be additional delay if the SJFA doesn’t succeed but the ball is firmly in their court to properly engage with the process. If they fail then the Pyramid fails to expand into the current Junior ranks save for those which may have lost patience and moved on. The ball then returns to the Pyramid Working group to just get on with it. No more chances for the SJFA to integrate en masse, sadly.

The three emails were apparently as follows:

(I) SFA

"Subject: Pyramid Group

Further to the above, there has been a considerable amount of conjecture since last Thursday’s Scottish FA Board meeting re this matter and, accordingly, I thought it would be helpful to clarify exactly what the Board agreed.

The Board of the Scottish FA discussed the matters that have been considered at the two Pyramid working groups with the most recent one having been chaired by myself. They also considered certain specific concerns in this context that were raised with them by one of their members. Finally they considered two requests for Scottish FA membership applications both of which were accepted and have now been referred to the licensing administration to progress in the normal course.

Given the ongoing uncertainty around finding a pyramid solution to bring the Juniors into the fold and the number of junior members that appear to be leaving without knowing what the pyramid solution is, it was agreed unanimously by the Scottish FA Board that it would not take any more membership applications until such time as this matter is resolved. This ensures that all clubs are able to make informed decisions in the full knowledge of what the future landscape looks like; something that they are unable to do at present.

The Scottish FA President will be chairing this and will be reconvening the pyramid working group in early course to take this forward. It is his and the Board of the Scottish FA’s wish that this can be resolved over the Summer allowing clubs to know what the situation is prior to the start of next season (noting that if any structural changes are agreed these would not come in until season 19-20). If matters are resolved in this timescale it will only be one Board meeting (June) where the Board are not considering applications for membership which should not cause any issues for clubs given the length of time it then takes to work through the process to gain full membership.

Alan, will be in touch in early course to set up a meeting.

Kind regards

Andrew McKinlay

Interim Chief Executive

Scottish Football Association

 

 (II)  SJFA

I’ve only had informal notification as yet. Andrew McKinlay the Interim CEO is out today so it will be Monday before I catch up with him. However my source of information was at the meeting so it is “kosher”

Once I have received confirmation in writing or verbally from Andrew I will put out a formal notification to clubs.

To confirm: The Board of the Scottish FA have agreed in principle to the Juniors entering the Pyramid at Tier 6 with possible target for  implementation commencing season 18/19. There will also be a moratorium on applications for Scottish FA membership and Club Licensing whilst discussions are ongoing re Pyramid integration.

Hope this helps. If you need anything further please let me know.

Regards

Tom Johnston

Scottish Junior FA

 

 (III)  SJFA

Gents

For information. Would have liked the response to be more robust however the information I have is that we are heading in the direction that will see us join the Pyramid – subject to an EGM – at a level no worse off than the EOS/SOS

Regards

Tom Johnston
Scottish Junior FA

Its like a game of Chinese whispers:

Person mis-hears discussion at meeting and passes it on. A single licencing committee (where new applications won't be accepted) becomes a 'moratorium' before the status is upped to an 'embargo' which is then escalated to an outright 'ban' on applications to the EoS - none are true.

Implementation in season 19/20 is exaggerated to season 18/19, and it takes a measured email from the SFA to reassure everyone that, back in the real world, nothing much has changed.

 

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4 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Its like a game of Chinese whispers:

Person mis-hears discussion at meeting and passes it on. A single licencing committee (where new applications won't be accepted) becomes a 'moratorium' before the status is upped to an 'embargo' which is then escalated to an outright 'ban' on applications to the EoS - none are true.

Implementation in season 19/20 is exaggerated to season 18/19, and it takes a measured email from the SFA to reassure everyone that, back in the real world, nothing much has changed.

 

I'm sure the 18-19 is just a genuine mistake.  A "moratorium on applications  whilst discussions are ongoing" seems a reasonable description of what the SFA is saying: "Scottish FA Board that it would not take any more membership applications until such time as this matter is resolved."

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