Junior football, what is the future?

[Khufu2]

2 minutes ago, Jason King said:

Yes, I'll publish them when you publish the ones I asked you for.

Deal?

Eh?

So the answer is “no”. As I thought.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Khufu2

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

The SoS is not fit for purpose, in any way, shape or form, to be the tier 6 vessel for the top Juniors. It's a league that has existed for about 70/80 years as a rural league for clubs in the extreme SW of the country.

A new WoS League is required - set up a management committee and invite clubs / accept applications. Aim for say 14 and pick the best applications.

The Juniors would exist below. How that works with EoS having two divisions I do not know though...

Hang on a minute, don't forget that licensed club Glasgow Uni will expect an invitation to the new West 'feeder' League (at tier 6 at least) along with those 'top' West Junior clubs who will be seeking guarantees of entry at tier 6 ('minimum'). I am sure that you 'posters' will all agree that we can't let those splendid fellows from Edinburgh & Stirling Uni's think they are superior to us.

And in the SJFA survey, junior club Aberdeen Uni, also confirmed that it wants to join the pyramid, as has Banks O'Dee. Splendid, as it must be Tier 6 for all, even in the North ! 

 

[Khufu2]

Just now, Robert James said:

Hang on a minute, don't forget that licensed club Glasgow Uni will expect an invitation to the new West 'feeder' League (at tier 6 at least) along with those 'top' West Junior clubs who will be seeking guarantees of entry at tier 6 ('minimum'). I am sure that you 'posters' will all agree that we can't let those splendid fellows from Edinburgh & Stirling Uni's think they are superior to us.

And in the SJFA survey, junior club Aberdeen Uni, also confirmed that it wants to join the pyramid, as has Banks O'Dee. Splendid, as it must be Tier 6 for all, even in the North ! 

 

Would GU really want double figure drubbings every other week.

[Robert James]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

Would GU really want double figure drubbings every other week.

Ah but its about the "principle", and "our history"....and of course we can't be criticised for not joining the pyramid originally, because  there was no West senior league !

Seriously though, are you suggesting that, by comparison,  Stirling Uni & Edinburgh Uni are going to be losing 0-10 "every other week" when the juniors reach the Lowland League?  Keep up the humour.

[Ginaro]

22 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

I  understand why the EoS would wish to entertain so many new clubs - but there is a serious danger of quantity outweighing quality.  A few strong applicants and also quite a few applicants who won't add much value.

Well if you added a few quality team to the EoS as it is then you'd still have <quality team> v Tweedmouth - you need quantity as well to force two divisions and avoid those uneven games.

22 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

Junior football is a grade or level  of football that has leagues throughout Scotland.  Just as EoS is a level  or grade. I have never said Blackburn shouldn't have gone because they are not a Super League club.

The EoS is a level, as it is connected to another league. Leagues/divisions inside each Junior regions' pyramids are levels. However Junior football as a whole is not a level as you can't progress from it and it sits unconnected from the rest of Scottish football.

What exactly was the point you were trying to make by saying Blackburn should've gone as far as they far can in the Juniors?

26 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

Fixtures is always a sore one but when I see the advanced fixture list for the EoS  I have to admit it looks good until venues and kick off times are changed often at the last minute. Seen a couple of games changed recently  with kick  off's at 12.00pm and 4.00pm......  Also easy to  create a fixture list for 14 teams who have no  Scottish Cup to  participate in and clubs playing in inter regional  cups. Then the farce of Kelty and LTHV the only two teams who had any chance of winning it playing their two league matches back to back....that makes a lot of sense does it not. What I  know  is the EoS is  not what you all think it is and money will  not shower down like some of you  think. Time will  tell.

The 12pm kick-off was to allow LTHV to play on Spartans artificial pitch, and according to the EoS results page there hasn't been a 4pm kick-off in any EoS competition this season...

Funnily enough it was the big Scottish Cup that caused the first Kelty v LHTV game to be postponed, and the weather for the other one - which is why they are playing their games at the back end of the season.

[Khufu2]

34 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Ah but its about the "principle", and "our history"....and of course we can't be criticised for not joining the pyramid originally, because  there was no West senior league !

Seriously though, are you suggesting that, by comparison,  Stirling Uni & Edinburgh Uni are going to be losing 0-10 "every other week" when the juniors reach the Lowland League?  Keep up the humour.

I seem to recall that in GU’s recent Scottish Cup encounters with junior clubs they shipped bucketloads of goals.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Khufu2

[Sunrise]

30 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Ah but its about the "principle", and "our history"....and of course we can't be criticised for not joining the pyramid originally, because  there was no West senior league !

Seriously though, are you suggesting that, by comparison,  Stirling Uni & Edinburgh Uni are going to be losing 0-10 "every other week" when the juniors reach the Lowland League?  Keep up the humour.

I've never heard GU seriously look at the Lowland, East or South of Scotland leagues since 2013, unless someone can direct me otherwise.

[stanley]

16 minutes ago, Sunrise said:

I've never heard GU seriously look at the Lowland, East or South of Scotland leagues since 2013, unless someone can direct me otherwise.

Not a good source at all but they have been talked about as having applied in the past e.g. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/lowland-league-welcome-cumbernauld-colts-5816197

[Born To Run]

I feel like this thread is getting sidetracked again (no surprising given that we're about to find out what's going on with the EoS).

You'll probably tell from my posts that I'm firmly behind an all-inclusive pyramid coming in. However, until recently I'd only read views and opinions from the senior side of the fence, so the last couple of months I've made a conscious effort to hear from the junior side as well (both pro and anti pyramid). Is it just me, or is there a basic, simple principle that would allow TJ and the SJFA to deliver what has been promised, appeasing both sides in the grade?

Stick with me, I'll not bore everyone with another "fantasy pyramid". Let's go with some key points instead:

• Form a new West of Scotland league at tier 6, alongside the East of Scotland.
• Offer Junior & SoS sides the chance to apply for the WoS and EoS, subject to the following criteria...
• Demand that all tier 6 clubs commit to obtaining a license within 2 years. If not, they immediately drop down...
• ...to the Junior leagues which slot in at Tier 7 and below (the North has nothing at Tier 6, allowing the Highland to go Premier/Division 1 if it gets too bloated).
• Any remaining sides (SoS, Glasgow Uni etc) join the Juniors at an appropriate level.
• Teams winning the top Junior leagues can decline promotion if not committing to a club license, in which case the next placed side can go up.

This way, the "smaller" clubs in the existing pyramid drop to a more suitable level in the Junior ranks, the SJFA can continue to run their leagues exactly as they do now (albeit with less teams overall), the sides wanting to progress upwards can either jump to tier 6 or earn promotion and those wanting to stay put can do so as well. Too many sides in the WoS or EoS? Run 2 regional divisions at the same level.

It's not perfect, but it gives a basis to start negotiations and see what happens - while allowing the SJFA to remain intact within the setup as a whole. There should also be an agreed commitment from all involved to explore a 3 region setup at Tier 5 in the years ahead, once everything settles down.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Born To Run

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

Ah but its about the "principle", and "our history"....and of course we can't be criticised for not joining the pyramid originally, because  there was no West senior league !

Seriously though, are you suggesting that, by comparison,  Stirling Uni & Edinburgh Uni are going to be losing 0-10 "every other week" when the juniors reach the Lowland League?  Keep up the humour.

Stirling and Edinburgh Uni are different cases though in some respects - EU have a number of PE teacher students at Moray House, Stirling Uni hoover up unwanted ex Pro youth. Even their 2nd and 3rd XIs are full of talent.

Edited April 26, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Born To Run]

6 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Not much wrong with that in my opinion, not sure why there is a need for a junior organisation running tier 7 though.

There's not a 'need' for it, but I suspect the SJFA would prefer to keep itself in existence so was thinking what could be achieved realistically.

[cmontheloknow]

7 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

There's not a 'need' for it, but I suspect the SJFA would prefer to keep itself in existence so was thinking what could be achieved realistically.

Brand tiers 5 and 6 Intermediate... Just like 1931 all over again!

[Khufu2]

18 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Stirling and Edinburgh Uni are different cases though in some respects - EU have a number of PE students, Stirling Uni hoover up unwanted ex Pro youth. Even their 2nd and 3rd XIs are full of talent.

Didn’t Stirling reach the final of the British universities championships a season or two back?

[cmontheloknow]

2 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Didn’t Stirling reach the final of the British universities championships a season or two back?

Not sure - might well have done, they have some very talented players. Through my job I know a few of their players in 2nds and 3rds - such strength in depth. Adam Strachan was having a wee moan in the local EK press about the fitness of the student teams as his own side (he felt) had come up short in those meetings. Stirling of course were the side that killed the EK promotion dream this year.

[drs]

The LL Stirling Uni team also isn't made up of students, no idea about the 2nd and 3rd teams.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Born To Run said:

I feel like this thread is getting sidetracked again (no surprising given that we're about to find out what's going on with the EoS).

You'll probably tell from my posts that I'm firmly behind an all-inclusive pyramid coming in. However, until recently I'd only read views and opinions from the senior side of the fence, so the last couple of months I've made a conscious effort to hear from the junior side as well (both pro and anti pyramid). Is it just me, or is there a basic, simple principle that would allow TJ and the SJFA to deliver what has been promised, appeasing both sides in the grade?

Stick with me, I'll not bore everyone with another "fantasy pyramid". Let's go with some key points instead:

• Form a new West of Scotland league at tier 6, alongside the East of Scotland.
• Offer Junior & SoS sides the chance to apply for the WoS and EoS, subject to the following criteria...
• Demand that all tier 6 clubs commit to obtaining a license within 2 years. If not, they immediately drop down...
• ...to the Junior leagues which slot in at Tier 7 and below (the North has nothing at Tier 6, allowing the Highland to go Premier/Division 1 if it gets too bloated).
• Any remaining sides (SoS, Glasgow Uni etc) join the Juniors at an appropriate level.
• Teams winning the top Junior leagues can decline promotion if not committing to a club license, in which case the next placed side can go up.

This way, the "smaller" clubs in the existing pyramid drop to a more suitable level in the Junior ranks, the SJFA can continue to run their leagues exactly as they do now (albeit with less teams overall), the sides wanting to progress upwards can either jump to tier 6 or earn promotion and those wanting to stay put can do so as well. Too many sides in the WoS or EoS? Run 2 regional divisions at the same level.

It's not perfect, but it gives a basis to start negotiations and see what happens - while allowing the SJFA to remain intact within the setup as a whole. There should also be an agreed commitment from all involved to explore a 3 region setup at Tier 5 in the years ahead, once everything settles down.

As a Junior fan who has grave reservations about the pyramid and would genuinely rather not see his club in League Two as it is currently formed, I can live with and see the benefits of what you've set out. The pyramid is happening and I'd go with what you've described. My remaining concerns would be about the number of promotion places, the cups and the north.

Though the idea of playing Edusport Academy or BSC "Glasgow" leaves me cold, a single division with, for example, Talbot, Cumnock, Glenafton, Beith, Pollok, Clydebank, Ladeside, Linlithgow, Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Kelty, EK, East Stirling, Spartans, Gretna and LTHV would be really attractive. But there needs to be enough promotion/relegation places between tiers 5 and 6, at least in the transition years. You can't have the top Junior sides and the better EoS sides scrapping it out at Tier 6 for one promotion place.

I think we need to hear more voices from the north about what solution would suit them, because I'm not sure they've worked out what they want.

Personally I'm not convinced by needing to obtain a licence for Tier 6 but it's definitely no deal-breaker.

Lastly, don't forget the cups. I think it would be great if the Junior Cup was opened up to everyone in Tier 5 down, and the Junior regional cups (East, West, North, maybe some others) opened up in the same way. There are no non-league cups with the heritage of those Junior competitions, and with the Juniors going to join the senior leagues it would make it less of a take-over and more palatable to have the seniors join the Junior cups.

[cmontheloknow]

56 minutes ago, drs said:

The LL Stirling Uni team also isn't made up of students, no idea about the 2nd and 3rd teams.

2nds 3rds 4ths are students, while the 1sts are (mostly?) on sports scholarships - still students though...

This link shows what courses the 1st XI do:

https://www.stir.ac.uk/sport-at-stirling/performance-sport/football-men/athleteprofiles/

Their previous clubs show why they're where they are in LL.

Edited April 26, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Junior_Arab]

6 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

2nds and 3rds are students, but yeah the 1sts are (mostly?) on sports scholarships yeah?

I’d imagine there will be 3 Stirling Uni teams composed exclusively of students that play in competitions against other unis on a Wednesday afternoon. The “University” teams that play on a Saturday whether amateur, senior wherever could presumably sign and play anyone they wanted - could be students, alumni or the simply the best players who’ll sign for them. I’d imagine most will play students as far as possible though. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Junior_Arab

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

I seem to recall that in GU’s recent Scottish Cup encounters with junior clubs they shipped bucketloads of goals.

 

 

Probably, because I didn't play !

Again seriously, you didn't answer my point about games against the 2 Varsity teams in the Lowland League.  During the last 50 years or so, these two Unis, and GU were usually on a par, as has been demonstrated by the UK national and Scottish league/cup tournament results for Universities.

Universities have decent sports budgets and facilities which, dare I say it, are better than your average non league club. Stirling & Edinburgh appointed experienced coaches, which they needed to compete in the Lowland League. GU to date, hasn't needed to do so, although IF they did join a West feeder League, this would be necessary. If you doubt this, have a look at the development at Heriot Watt University's campus (in the EoS).  

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, Sunrise said:

I've never heard GU seriously look at the Lowland, East or South of Scotland leagues since 2013, unless someone can direct me otherwise.

They haven't as far as I know, but a WoS feeder league is a different situation, especially if existing Scottish Cup rights are taken away from junior, senior & amateur clubs, who don't join after the opportunity has been provided.  BoD and LR take care.