Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

"The SPFL do not want more than one Lowland League"

I'm not proposing two Leagues. There would still be one Lowland League, comprising two linear divisions, Premier and Division One (in the first season two geographical decisions to separate the wheat from the chaff.

"To separate the wheat from the chaff" says it all about the motivations behind your idea, how to sweet talk and influence people!!

 

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

 

"There are not enough Licenced clubs to form two regional Lowland Leagues"

I'm not proposing two Leagues put two divisions of the LL It's being proposed for 2019-20 not today.  The whole point of trying to reach agreement by the summer is to allow clubs 12 months to work towards licensing. As with the creation of the Lowland League, clubs could also be given a further 12 months to get a licence.

You seriously think the current LL clubs are going to agree to a restructure in the first place, then add in unlicenced clubs into the mix? dear god.

 

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

"An SFA Licence process can take a lot longer than a season to work through depending on the starting point for each club"

And it can take less. Either way 12 months grace in working towards a licence was granted by the SFA when the Lowland League was created so we have a precedent.

The precedent was to accommodate the formation of the league.  The league now exists and there's a clear starting point where you can play in the Pyramid and apply for a licence, that would be the formation of a  WoSFL, and the EoSFL.

 

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

"The SFA Licence process for current Junior clubs cannot begin until they join the Pyramid"

Does Blackburn United know this?  

Yes

 

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

"Anyone with their head screwed on looking at the above facts realises that"

...they aren't facts at all.

They were all facts.

[Khufu2]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

"To separate the wheat from the chaff" says it all about the motivations behind your idea, how to sweet talk and influence people!!

Eh?  The wheat might turn out to be the 16 original LL teams and the chaff might turn out to be the 16 new clubs.

I understand why that hadn't crossed your mind.

[Ross.]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

Here we go again. Nothing but grievance.

This is now, not 5 years ago. Do we want a pyramid which works with the better clubs positioned above the poorer clubs or do we not? Do we want a working model or a laughing stock?

These people don't want a pyramid based on ability. They want a ladder with the juniors standing at the bottom with one allowed to climb one rung per year. And all to preserve their unrealistic position on that ladder.

Better is a subjective term. You have to define what makes some clubs better than others. Please do so, and be very specific with your criteria.

I want a pyramid that gives every club the opportunity to climb as high as their ability allows them. I accept that my club will have to start lower in the pyramid because other clubs took the risk that meant that pyramid structure existed, and they are getting the rewards that come with that risk. I'd prefer us to go in higher, sure, but life doesn't usually work that way.

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Here we go again. Nothing but grievance.

This is now, not 5 years ago. Do we want a pyramid which works with the better clubs positioned above the poorer clubs or do we not? Do we want a working model or a laughing stock?

 

These people don't want a pyramid based on ability. They want a ladder with the juniors standing at the bottom with one allowed to climb one rung per year. And all to preserve their unrealistic position on that ladder.

You have one serious amount of brass neck to come out with that!   you may have missed it but a Pyramid is in place in the East.  In the West it can be easily created along similar lines.  That's your starting point for a perfectly good Pyramid.

The clubs in the LL have earned the right to be there over the last few years, Junior clubs have no right to immediate entry at tier 5 and will have to earn the right. Like any other Pyramid, like the Junior Pyramid.

If this is the serious thinking going on in the SJFA, then anyone thinking there will be a quick solution to Junior clubs entering the Pyramid will be disappointed.

[Jacksgranda]

2 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

No. I'm Isa Goudie.

 

2 hours ago, Owen Morgan said:

No! I'm Isa Goudie!

 

2 hours ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Naw, I'm Isa Goudie

We are all Isa Goudie

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Eh?  The wheat might turn out to be the 16 original LL teams and the chaff might turn out to be the 16 new clubs.

I understand why that hadn't crossed your mind.

I understand perfectly, surprised you didn't use "mediocre"

[Jason King]

14 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Here we go again. Nothing but grievance.

Funny but the only people on this thread with a grievance appears to be you, a massive one about "mediocre" clubs rightly vaulting yours in the pyramid structure by playing the LL game. 

[Cyclizine]

17 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

You could get twenty licensed clubs from the West Juniors within a year no problem so long as the adminstrators can cope.

All it needs is for licensing to be opened to Junior Clubs this season and taking effect from the amalgamation 2019/20.

There's your level  5 Lowland  League West.

References about 10 years for there to be enough licensed clubs for another lowland league complete and utter nonsense.

 

 

 

 

The circumstances regarding the creation of the Lowland / Highland level 5 were unique at the time and, I agree, rushed. The current situation isn't how I'd've put things together - however, the structure has now been there for five years. It was a large concession to get a two region split, rather than a single division. Realistically, level 5 is fixed at two regions for the foreseeable future and any further regionalisation needs to be done with this in mind.

The pragmatic solution is to get the pyramid working below level 5 and then try to optimise level 5. I think there's a fair amount of agreement that this would involve a WoSFL alongside the EoSFL in the Lowland area. This is either a new league body in the West or perhaps less likely, the SoSFL take on the mantle.

There is no way that unlicensed clubs would be admitted to a tier above level 6 when there is clearly a structure in situ, even if it's not optimal. At the moment, I'm encouraged that at least I seems that there's at least some discussion going on with the various interested bodies.

[Burnie_man]

Whilst we’re all discussing the LL / EoS / WoS, has anyone asked the SJFA what their plans are in the North? And what their plans are for the Tayside clubs? What are their plans for the East? Has anyone asked when the EGM is?

TJ’s email’s are exceptionally light on actual detail.

[FairWeatherFan]

In terms of the Lowland League increasing it's relegation spots to accomodate "better" clubs, that's already being liked it as it's something that the EoSFL have been pursuing. Its quite possible that it will go from the current 1+(1) to 2+(1) this summer. Get a proper WoSFL in place you could have something like 3+(1) eventually.

Kelty Hearts as East Superleague champions opted for Tier 6. Bonnyrigg Rose as favourites for this year's East Superleague chose Tier 6. Camelon as a Superleague team opted for Tier 6, even Clydebank in the West have opted for Tier 6 without fully knowing what that would mean for them in the next year. Tier 6 is an open goal and finding an integration at that level should be the priority, rather than a literal handful of clubs that might think they deserve higher and everything should be done to accomodate them.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Whilst we’re all discussing the LL / EoS / WoS, has anyone asked the SJFA what their plans are in the North? And what their plans are for the Tayside clubs? What are their plans for the East? Has anyone asked when the EGM is?

TJ’s email’s are exceptionally light on actual detail.

Certainly the Carnoustie twitter rep thought the HL/LL boundary was part of these discussions.

[heedthebaa]

This is why I have a lot of respect and admiration for Kelty, they came into a league that was obviously beneath their standards, demanded nothing, nae greeting or whining, showed respect, humility and grace and have just got on with it. Even if Saturday doesn’t go for them, I’m sure it’ll continue the same. Then you come on here...........................

[Guest]

What we all should keep in mind is that the pyramid group will collectively decide the future/resolution to the matter. It won't simply be the sjfa and SFA putting proposals into place. Plans will be drawn, negotiations had and a collective vote/agreement had. 

The reason I say this is that the Highland league, lowland league won't want another feeder league at tier 5.....there are already two and there is no need for another. In the west there would appear to be a gap at tier 6, so it would make sense to have the west juniors as tier 6 there alongside the sosfl and eosfl. In the east there is already a recognised and established league at tier 6 and no requirement for another, I would expect the juniors in the East to move at tier 7.

However, any agreement reached will include a 6 way agreement with the hfl, slfl, SFA, eosfl, sjfa and the sosfl. As for the sjfa, they would have to ballot their members and gain agreement to move forward with anything that is proposed. Not a quick or easy process by any means. 

[Khufu2]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

In terms of the Lowland League increasing it's relegation spots to accomodate "better" clubs, that's already being liked it as it's something that the EoSFL have been pursuing. Its quite possible that it will go from the current 1+(1) to 2+(1) this summer. Get a proper WoSFL in place you could have something like 3+(1) eventually.

Kelty Hearts as East Superleague champions opted for Tier 6. Bonnyrigg Rose as favourites for this year's East Superleague chose Tier 6. Camelon as a Superleague team opted for Tier 6, even Clydebank in the West have opted for Tier 6 without fully knowing what that would mean for them in the next year. Tier 6 is an open goal and finding an integration at that level should be the priority, rather than a literal handful of clubs that might think they deserve higher and everything should be done to accomodate them.

Well yes. Kelty are an exception in that they see themselves as a prospective SPFL team  and   probably saw the EOS as a near open goal in terms of immediate promotion to the LL, knowing their only rival was LTHV.   But here's the problem. Both teams should clearly be in the Lowland League but as more and more good teams join the EOS at tier 6, it's going to take longer and longer for them to get where their playing strengths/infrastructure  merit. Next season the unfortunate of LTHV/Kelty will probably be joined by Bonnyrigg and HoB and Dundonald, the following season could see Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Penicuik at the very least. That's maybe seven teams in the east alone who are probably stronger than the majority of current LL teams. If a WoS league starts at tier 6 you'll have another 7 or 8 teams stronger than most of the division above - so between east and west there'll be a whole division worth of clubs stronger than most of the teams in the division above.

It's a guddle, yet it's easily remedied.

[Jason King]

Indeed, its called promotion and relegation.

[Burnie_man]

15 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Well yes. Kelty are an exception in that they see themselves as a prospective SPFL team  and   probably saw the EOS as a near open goal in terms of immediate promotion to the LL, knowing their only rival was LTHV.   But here's the problem. Both teams should clearly be in the Lowland League but as more and more good teams join the EOS at tier 6, it's going to take longer and longer for them to get where their playing strengths/infrastructure  merit. Next season the unfortunate of LTHV/Kelty will probably be joined by Bonnyrigg and HoB and Dundonald, the following season could see Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Penicuik at the very least. That's maybe seven teams in the east alone who are probably stronger than the majority of current LL teams. If a WoS league starts at tier 6 you'll have another 7 or 8 teams stronger than most of the division above - so between east and west there'll be a whole division worth of clubs stronger than most of the teams in the division above.

It's a guddle, yet it's easily remedied.

At the moment, clubs have nowhere to go at all if they win the Superleague unless they leave it. If in the east the Juniors reached agreement to merge with the EoS, then the stronger  3 or 4 clubs would be at tier 6 straight away.  If they win the league they potentially go to the LL, if they don't they stay where they are.  Where exactly is the problem other than your misguided sense of entitlement?

To address your plan. Bring in 16 further clubs at tier 5 and go through a process of splitting them into two divisions.  Firstly, you’d need Licenced clubs therefore the current Licenced clubs outside the LL would need to be invited; Kelty Hearts, LTHV, Burntisland, Coldstream, Girvan, Newton Stewart, Threave Rovers, St.Cuthbert Wanderers and maybe Glasgow University and Wigtown.  These are all full SFA Licenced member clubs.  By the end of next season I’d expect 4 or 5 of the new EoS applicants to be Licenced. All those clubs would have to be offered places in this “Top 32” LL shootout for season 2019/20, so very quickly you’re already down to only 1 or 2 places for Junior clubs.

Rather than bring better clubs in at the top level as you are hoping it would, it will have the opposite effect. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Burnie_man

[lithgierose]

10 minutes ago, Jason King said:

Indeed, its called promotion and relegation.

5 up 5 doon 

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Well yes. Kelty are an exception in that they see themselves as a prospective SPFL team  and   probably saw the EOS as a near open goal in terms of immediate promotion to the LL, knowing their only rival was LTHV.   But here's the problem. Both teams should clearly be in the Lowland League but as more and more good teams join the EOS at tier 6, it's going to take longer and longer for them to get where their playing strengths/infrastructure  merit. Next season the unfortunate of LTHV/Kelty will probably be joined by Bonnyrigg and HoB and Dundonald, the following season could see Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Penicuik at the very least. That's maybe seven teams in the east alone who are probably stronger than the majority of current LL teams. If a WoS league starts at tier 6 you'll have another 7 or 8 teams stronger than most of the division above - so between east and west there'll be a whole division worth of clubs stronger than most of the teams in the division above.

It's a guddle, yet it's easily remedied.

It's easily remedied by integration at tier 6, clubs getting licenced allowing for promotion & relegation to the Lowland, and then making an argument for a Lowland West & East at Tier 5.

[tell_me_more]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

At the moment, clubs have nowhere to go at all if they win the Superleague unless they leave it. If in the east the Juniors reached agreement to merge with the EoS, then the stronger clubs 3 or 4 clubs would be at tier 6 straight away.  If they win the league they potentially go to the LL, if they don't they stay where they are.  Where exactly is the problem other than your misguided sense of entitlement?

To address your plan. Bring in 16 further clubs at tier 5 and go through a process of splitting them into two divisions.  Firstly, you’d need Licenced clubs therefore the current Licenced clubs outside the LL would need to be invited; Kelty Hearts, LTHV, Burntisland, Coldstream, Girvan, Newton Stewart, Threave Rovers, St.Cuthbert Wanderers and maybe Glasgow University and Wigtown.  These are all full SFA Licenced member clubs.  By the end of next season I’d expect 4 or 5 of the new EoS applicants to be Licenced. All those clubs would have to be offered places in this “Top 32” LL shootout for season 2019/20, so very quickly you’re already down to only 1 or 2 places for Junior clubs.

Rather than bring better clubs in at the top level as you are hoping it would, it will have the opposite effect. 

So you think 4 or 5 of the new EOS ex Junior teams out of say 15 teams  can get licensed quickly but in the West out of about 80 teams many of whom have arguably better facilities and infrastucture wouldn't be able to get 20 licensed quickly? Looke like you are just twisting things to suit your own agenda......

[AsimButtHitsASix]

I saw a lot of chat about the population disparity in a Highland/Lowland league split so, out of boredom, decided to rattle about the actual figures. So splitting the 32 council areas into a "traditional" divide. Obviously it's a bit skewed.



So I wanted to see how south the split would need to be in order to be more even and yer pretty much making the Clyde/Forth rivers the dividing line to get anything close the equality...

That seems a wee bit ridiculous to me. When ye've got Clydebank and Camelon in the same league as Wick (in theory) something's went aff. So if yer using a population argument then, obviously, Highland/Lowland is a stupid split for the 5th tier. I'd argue that because of the larger distances northern clubs have to travel then it should be a bit skewed in their favour in order to keep the 5th tier even but, obviously, there's those that disagree. Anyway, was a slow day at work. So decided to do the same for other types of split.

Before anyone points out how pointless an exercise all this is
A: I know
B: Work's been boring as f**k recently
C: I like fannying about with figures and MSPaint