Junior football, what is the future?

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

21 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The actual old trophy was retired not that long ago. What's used now is just a replica. 

What 3 cups are we talking about? Junior, South Challenge, and? 

The North of Scotland Cup too.

Another poster pointed out there’s been no interest from the HL for another all in Cup but surely this is the sort of cup that would market well.

Regionalise the first two or three rounds then all in even. 
 

Im only saying as binning a cup that has probably the third largest pulling power for fans in Scotland (yes I mean bigger than the challenge cup) seems silly to me because of some politics. A final of Kelty vs Brora for example at Inverness or Pitodrie would draw a good crowd. That excitement for that cup never left the Juniors.

[FairWeatherFan]

31 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

The North of Scotland Cup too.

Another poster pointed out there’s been no interest from the HL for another all in Cup but surely this is the sort of cup that would market well.

Regionalise the first two or three rounds then all in even. 
 

Im only saying as binning a cup that has probably the third largest pulling power for fans in Scotland (yes I mean bigger than the challenge cup) seems silly to me because of some politics. A final of Kelty vs Brora for example at Inverness or Pitodrie would draw a good crowd. That excitement for that cup never left the Juniors.

For this by North of Scotland you're meaning the equivalent of the South Challenge Cup which has been scrapped since 2009. The North version was 99% Highland League sides so didn't have the same inter-league aspect that the South Challenge did with EoS v. SoS. Once the SFA stopped funding it, it was pulled.

When people speak about regionalisation, i'm guessing they're going to have to be more inventive than just North/South. Since if you took it from the SPFL playoff boundary line there's more than double the number of teams South. That was a problem solved in the SCC by having the NE section play an extra round of games. Which I doubt clubs would be keen on for this.

When it comes to Kelty v. Brora i'm pretty sure a SPFL Playoff series would bring bigger crowds for those particular clubs, than a cup final at a neutral venue. At the moment the only people advocating for the binning of the Junior Cup are random posters on the internet that have nothing to do with the running of the leagues or competitions. The main issue with the standing of the Junior Cup was the last administration. Who decided to amend their rules only to allow WoSFL clubs. Which meant they lost the 10(?) or so WoSFL clubs that withdrew membership and the 8 East Region clubs that joined the EoSFL who were forced out of the SJFA with no choice. A situation is likely to repeat itself with another bunch of East Region clubs joining the EoSFL this year.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

Oh right I didn’t realise. Wiki seems to say Brora won it last season.

you are right about the playoff, but that’s two clubs. Bring in a cup with prestige like this and you could have really big crowds from the last 16 onwards imo.

I really don’t see a negative and can’t really understand why we’d keep a cup in the south to qualify for something we already qualify for through licensing. It’s in its very nature defunct.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

Oh and on that neutral venue point. We played Kelty in 2007 in front of 9,300 people. No playoff series will generate that level of support.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Oh right I didn’t realise. Wiki seems to say Brora won it last season.

That's a cup organised by the NoSFA and is basically a minor tournament for the Highland HL & NCL teams.

1 minute ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

I really don’t see a negative and can’t really understand why we’d keep a cup in the south to qualify for something we already qualify for through licensing. It’s in its very nature defunct.

The South Challenge Cup has never been a qualifying tournament. It was basically a replacement in the calendar for the Qualifying Cup (South) where only SFA members competed, with the South Challenge Cup being open to all teams in the SoSFL and EoSFL plus "Southern" SFA members in other leagues.

The only qualfying cup tournaments in the pyramid are the Alex Jack Cup (EoSFL) and Alba Cup (SoSFL) for non-licenced teams. The winner of each contest the South & East Cup Winners Shield.

5 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Oh and on that neutral venue point. We played Kelty in 2007 in front of 9,300 people. No playoff series will generate that level of support.

That was purely for Kelty v. Brora since Brora since both would struggle to have total population of 9,300 and Inverness or Pittodrie as a venue wouldn't attract the same level of casual support being outside the central belt.

[Junior Pub League]

18 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Any continuation of a junior cup needs to be done to make it work for the 200ish participants(presuming entry for all clubs below tier 5 and above amateur) and not just 4 clubs that make the semi finals.

Why continue a dying cup when the senior clubs have prosperous competitions to play in?

[Junior Pub League]

1 hour ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Oh and on that neutral venue point. We played Kelty in 2007 in front of 9,300 people. No playoff series will generate that level of support.

Good senior clubs like Linlithgow need to embrace the future or they'll be hamstrung by being beholden to the past. The Junior Cup is an irrelevance.

[Cyclizine]

4 hours ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

The North of Scotland Cup too.

Another poster pointed out there’s been no interest from the HL for another all in Cup but surely this is the sort of cup that would market well.

Regionalise the first two or three rounds then all in even. 
 

Im only saying as binning a cup that has probably the third largest pulling power for fans in Scotland (yes I mean bigger than the challenge cup) seems silly to me because of some politics. A final of Kelty vs Brora for example at Inverness or Pitodrie would draw a good crowd. That excitement for that cup never left the Juniors.

There's no real desire for it up here amongst the Highland League teams, as it really doesn't give any benefits to the majority of clubs that the Scottish Cup doesn't. Remember Highland League clubs have played in the big cup for many years: it is the all in national competition to them.

If you want an all in non-league cup like the FA Trophy down south, then you're going to have to convince someone to throw money at it: sponsorship, decent prizemoney. If clubs lose money playing in it, like many NRJFA clubs did in the Junior Cup, it'll never fly.

I don't know what the NRJFA or NCL club thoughts on the matter are, given they are likely to enter the Highland pyramid at Tier 6 soon.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Cyclizine

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

There's no real desire for it up here amongst the Highland League teams, as it really doesn't give any benefits to the majority of clubs that the Scottish Cup doesn't. Remember Highland League clubs have played in the big cup for many years: it is the all in national competition to them.

If you want an all in non-league cup like the FA Trophy down south, then you're going to have to convince someone to throw money at it: sponsorship, decent prizemoney. If clubs lose money playing in it, like many NRJFA clubs did in the Junior Cup, it'll never fly.

I don't know what the NRJFA or NCL club thoughts on the matter are, given they are likely to enter the Highland pyramid at Tier 6 soon.

A Highland League team can easily go on a 3-4 game run in the Scottish Cup. For that they get prize money, travel expenses, and some extra media attention as the Scottish Cup actually gets some coverage, maybe even TV appearances in highlights or a live game.

A non-league national cup with 200+ entrants would see over 90% of the teams knocked out before the Round of 16 amounting to 3-4 games. No prize money, at best travel expenses, and probably the same amount of media attention that the normal weekend's fixtures would already get. Not to mention the early rounds of the actual Scottish Cup would be around the same the early rounds of the non-league Scottish Cup. So week one the Scottish Cup week two the diddy cup.

It'd be like the SPFL League Cup and SPFL Challenge Cup being played around the same time. Where Championship sides only get excited by the Semi finals stage of the Challenge Cup when there's a chance of winning it.

[FairWeatherFan]

When it comes to the FA Trophy and Vase. They operate with qualifying rounds, regionalisation, prize money for every round, travel expenses and even have hotel expenses that make them work.

[San Starko Rover]

When it comes to the FA Trophy and Vase. They operate with qualifying rounds, regionalisation, prize money for every round, travel expenses and even have hotel expenses that make them work.

Unfortunately as you say it’s only of interest down England because of the money involved. A Non-league Scottish Cup like the Junior Cup has probably had its day sadly as there’s no money in it and it costs teams money until the latter stages.
You’re right about the Challenge Cup, no one cares until the Semi-Finals until then it’s a distraction for injuries and playing Colt teams .
In a perfect world an all in cup with final at Hampden sounds great but it required sponsorship I can’t see coming. I fear the SJFA will limp on with the Junior Cup gradually losing members each year until it is no more. Without money the HL and most Northern teams won’t have any interest in a new cup making it basically the South Challenge Cup by default.

Sad end for the once great Junior Cup but it’ll probably be consigned to the Hampden Museum.

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

Unfortunately as you say it’s only of interest down England because of the money involved. A Non-league Scottish Cup like the Junior Cup has probably had its day sadly as there’s no money in it and it costs teams money until the latter stages.
You’re right about the Challenge Cup, no one cares until the Semi-Finals until then it’s a distraction for injuries and playing Colt teams .
In a perfect world an all in cup with final at Hampden sounds great but it required sponsorship I can’t see coming. I fear the SJFA will limp on with the Junior Cup gradually losing members each year until it is no more. Without money the HL and most Northern teams won’t have any interest in a new cup making it basically the South Challenge Cup by default.

Sad end for the once great Junior Cup but it’ll probably be consigned to the Hampden Museum.

 

Dates & rules wise a non-league Scottish Cup can certainly be done. The SCC covers that now & numbers wise adding HL, NCL, ERSJFA, NRSJFA still fits under 256. Allow with additional clubs it might need an additional round soon. 

The SCC has even had eligible clubs not participate (Girvan) so it doesn't have to be forced on anyone. 

Its just working out the financial side to make it work for the majority. Not just those looking for a day out in late May/June when all other football has finished for the season. 

[tellyboy]

In a very interesting move Forfar west end have applied to EOS

Forfar West End

ANNOUNCEMENT:

The club would like to announce that we have officially submitted an application to join the East of Scotland Football League next season. 

This is a significant move for the club and a decision that has not been taken lightly however, following weeks of consultation with the committee and management, it has been unanimously decided that this is the best route forward for the club.

Should our application be successful, it will see us move into the SFA tiered system.

Further updates will be provided in due course.

[Robert James]

12 hours ago, tellyboy said:

In a very interesting move Forfar west end have applied to EOS

Forfar West End

ANNOUNCEMENT:

The club would like to announce that we have officially submitted an application to join the East of Scotland Football League next season. 

This is a significant move for the club and a decision that has not been taken lightly however, following weeks of consultation with the committee and management, it has been unanimously decided that this is the best route forward for the club.

Should our application be successful, it will see us move into the SFA tiered system.

Further updates will be provided in due course.

 

Which junior  club will be the next to apply to join the EoSL.

And more significantly, will the existing EoSL clubs vote in favour of West End's election ?

[Burnieman]

So after 4 years (almost) and 32,000 posts, this thread might have reached it's natural end. The question has been answered.

[Marten]

59 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

So after 4 years (almost) and 32,000 posts, this thread might have reached it's natural end. The question has been answered.

To be honest, if you would have predicted this all 4 years ago, most people wouldn't have believed you. Once Kelty got the ball rolling, it went faster than probably even the strongest pro-pyramid advocates were expecting.

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, Marten said:

To be honest, if you would have predicted this all 4 years ago, most people wouldn't have believed you. Once Kelty got the ball rolling, it went faster than probably even the strongest pro-pyramid advocates were expecting.

Agree, it's been quicker than I was expecting 4 years ago, particularly the Highland/Tayside part of it.  It's not perfect, but at least everyone is now inside it and have a say in its evolution.

[PastyMan]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

So after 4 years (almost) and 32,000 posts, this thread might have reached it's natural end. The question has been answered.

Bizarrely Douglas Adams had the Answer to this thread years ago

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything is 42

42 SPFL clubs ..... just saying

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

So after 4 years (almost) and 32,000 posts, this thread might have reached it's natural end. The question has been answered.

Not just the thread - the entire forum.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Not just the thread - the entire forum.

Moving on from pyramid reconstruction to P&B forum reconstruction.