Junior football, what is the future?

[Junior Pub League]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

No problem whatsoever with the idea of the SJFA being wound up at this point but discarding a cup competition that can still draw 5000+ to finals and garner significant national media attention because of petty blazer politics would be extremely foolish in marketing terms.

Try explaining then why good Senior clubs like Clydebank and Cumbernauld are playing in a "Junior" competition. Clubs were pulling out last year and that number is only going to increase going forward as the real competitions take precedence.

Its had its day and its time to retire both the competition and the entire concept of "Junior" football, its day is done.

[Marten]

I think we have to move on.   There is very little interest from the Highland clubs in an all-in cup out with the Scottish Cup and you can understand why, the North Juniors have always been a bit non-plussed about it.  That may change if the competition didn't cost clubs money like the Junior Cup did if you drew a north club (and vice versa).
That said, when things settle down and everyone is inside the pyramid, then perhaps the South Challenge Cup could be re-invented, given a better name (SFA Trophy?) and finals played at Hampden given the SFA now owns the place.  As has been said before, could be part of a non-league finals day with the Scottish Amateur Cup.  I'm sure in time it will be looked at.

Just merge the Junior Cup & South Challenge cup, call it something different like SFA Trophy or so and play the final at Hampden. Invite the clubs in the Highland League & North Caledonian League as well. Even if they aren't interested (likely), at least you give them the option to join. You can't force them obviously, but if the competition is successful, who knows whether or not they will take up the invitation at some point?

Edited March 14, 2021 by Marten

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Marten said:

Just merge the Junior Cup & South Challenge cup, call it something different like SFA Trophy or so and play the final at Wembley. Invite the clubs in the Highland League & North Caledonian League as well. Even if they aren't interested (likely), at least you give them the option to join. You can't force them obviously, but if the competition is successful, who knows whether or not they will take up the invitation at some point?

The time to do that would really be this year as the SCC is due to review its operating model anyway. 

Its basically a case of adding the Highland League, NCL, ERSJFA, and NRSJFA  to the SCC competition Committee and rewriting the rulebook, rebrand and switch to a different trophy. 

Otherwise I dont see an actual merger. Its more likely the SFA will finally step in with a new competition for the pyramid leagues. 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The time to do that would really be this year as the SCC is due to review its operating model anyway. 

Its basically a case of adding the Highland League, NCL, ERSJFA, and NRSJFA  to the SCC competition Committee and rewriting the rulebook, rebrand and switch to a different trophy. 

Otherwise I dont see an actual merger. Its more likely the SFA will finally step in with a new competition for the pyramid leagues. 

Sorry what are the rules regarding gates and traveling distances with both Scottish Junior cup and South Regional cup

Who gets the gate receipts / how much of a split and how much do teams get when travelling a certain distance in both cups ?

Cup competitions are good but you have to make it viable for teams to participate. We know you can do well in a cup but have away draws so teams do need to get something so they aren't at  a loss

Edited March 14, 2021 by Bestsinceslicebread
Last paragraph

[Cyclizine]

2 hours ago, Marten said:

play the final at Wembley.

I presume you mean Hampden...

[Burnieman]

Just merge the Junior Cup & South Challenge cup, call it something different like SFA Trophy or so and play the final at Wembley. Invite the clubs in the Highland League & North Caledonian League as well. Even if they aren't interested (likely), at least you give them the option to join. You can't force them obviously, but if the competition is successful, who knows whether or not they will take up the invitation at some point?

The cost to hire Wembley might be a bit much, I like your thinking though [emoji23]

[FairWeatherFan]

31 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Sorry what are the rules regarding gates and traveling distances with both Scottish Junior cup and South Regional cup

Who gets the gate receipts / how much of a split and how much do teams get when travelling a certain distance in both cups ?

Cup competitions are good but you have to make it viable for teams to participate. We know you can do well in a cup but have away draws so teams do need to get something so they aren't at  a loss

Junior Cup:

• Minimum ticket price get's set £5/£2 upto the Round of 16. Quarter finals on £7/£3.50
• Upto the Quarter finals match fees for officials get covered by the gate. What's left over is split 50/50.
• Semi finals onwards match fees for officials get covered by the gate. Two legged semis 40/40/20 One off semis/(presumably final) third/third/third. With the SJFA guaranteeing £5k for the semis and £12k for the final.
• Travel guarantees are paid by the home team until the Semi finals. Initial £55 for 0-25 miles and goes up various levels before maxing out at £340 for 251-300 milles. The SJFA will top anything over 101 miles with a further 50% of what the home team pays.

SCC: Which is under review because of the inclusion of the WoSFL and will be changing.

• Home team keeps all of the gate upto the final and sets ticket prices up to the Final. Home team responsible for paying the match fees.
• Final prices set by Competition Committee, who keep anything leftover from the gate after covering the costs of the match.
• Travel expenses are paid by the Competition Committee: 0-50 miles there is no payment. 50-80 miles payments start with £150 payment. Goes through various levels before maxing out at 120+ miles = £300

[Marten]

I presume you mean Hampden...

Oops... That teaches me not to simultaneously be in a discussion on a Scottish non-league cup on P&B and the EFL Trophy on another forum... [emoji1787]

[parsforlife]

Any continuation of a junior cup needs to be done to make it work for the 200ish participants(presuming entry for all clubs below tier 5 and above amateur) and not just 4 clubs that make the semi finals.

[Stag Nation]

21 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Junior Cup:

• Minimum ticket price get's set £5/£2 upto the Round of 16. Quarter finals on £7/£3.50

That sounds like illegal price fixing.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Any continuation of a junior cup needs to be done to make it work for the 200ish participants(presuming entry for all clubs below tier 5 and above amateur) and not just 4 clubs that make the semi finals.

That's why it will be interesting to see what changes with the SCC. When they were just adding East teams it probably didn't impact the Competition Committee's finances that much as a lot of games would fall within the 50 mile no payment scale.

There are now going to be more games that will require travel expenses and more clubs looking for a split of the gate.

[parsforlife]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's why it will be interesting to see what changes with the SCC. When they were just adding East teams it probably didn't impact the Competition Committee's finances that much as a lot of games would fall within the 50 mile no payment scale.

There are now going to be more games that will require travel expenses and more clubs looking for a split of the gate.

Split gate is inevitable IMO.   How does the SCC fund travel expenses,  Do they take a % of gates?

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, parsforlife said:

Split gate is inevitable IMO.   How does the SCC fund travel expenses,  Do they take a % of gates?

They get the money from the final and presumably sponsorships. For the first couple of years they got £20k a year from the SFA. Then after that they went regional until the Quarter Finals which would of limited travel expenses being paid. It only went to an open draw again in 2016-17 with the expansion of East teams only, which again would have minimised the travel payments.

[Andy groundhopper]

Just throwing this in, because the West has now gone Senior, couldn't you  just name the Conference's and below as ' Juniors '  with only the top divisions being called Senior ?  / Or rename the amateurs status ? Only trying to find a way to keep the Junior Cup going somehow, as it seems to retain the interest among fans.

[John S]

The term 'Junior' for adult football takes some explaining and the new developments are perhaps a good time to see it gone.

Just throwing this in, because the West has now gone Senior, couldn't you  just name the Conference's and below as ' Juniors '  with only the top divisions being called Senior ?  / Or rename the amateurs status ? Only trying to find a way to keep the Junior Cup going somehow, as it seems to retain the interest among fans.

[Burnieman]

Just throwing this in, because the West has now gone Senior, couldn't you  just name the Conference's and below as ' Juniors '  with only the top divisions being called Senior ?  / Or rename the amateurs status ? Only trying to find a way to keep the Junior Cup going somehow, as it seems to retain the interest among fans.

.

[Cyclizine]

3 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Just throwing this in, because the West has now gone Senior, couldn't you  just name the Conference's and below as ' Juniors '  with only the top divisions being called Senior ?  / Or rename the amateurs status ? Only trying to find a way to keep the Junior Cup going somehow, as it seems to retain the interest among fans.

I'd give them a nice uncontroversial name, like Intermediates...

[sfha]

The English sorted this out half a century ago when they abolished the amateur grade and made all footballers, well footballers. 

[Stag Nation]

33 minutes ago, sfha said:

The English sorted this out half a century ago when they abolished the amateur grade and made all footballers, well footballers. 

Indeed. As did athletics, tennis, cricket etc. decades ago.

[sfha]

Surely the writing was on the wall when Junior clubs were given entry to the Scottish Cup, and soon after amateurs. I reckon the SFA had a 20 year plan and it is now falling into place...