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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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On 19/07/2020 at 18:02, LongTimeLurker said:

Many of the usual suspects on here were ridiculing the SFA officeholders involved for supposedly not knowing their own rules and having to have it explained to them at this meeting. In reality, they should have been taking it as a signal that the Club 42 boundary wasn't anything like as rigid as they liked to think. Judging from patriot's posts the people that matter in blazer terms in the EoS did grasp that and subsequently changed tack.

That's just completely incorrect again and with a large slice of revisionism.

The EoS followed the LL lead by sticking to the boundary line, the LL excluded clubs north of the boundary when advertising for possible applications (for obvious reasons) therefore the EoS would probably not accept them either, why would they when there would be no guarantee the LL would accept them if they were EoS Champions. Logic tells you that, and the two leagues do talk to one another.

Any league can accept any club, the EoS can accept Wick if the members wanted to admit them, the LL could accept Buckie, it's a members driven organisation like all other leagues. However, it makes absolute sense that if there is a boundary line in place to regulate relegations from the SPFL to the HL/LL and it's written into the rule book, then it should also follow that those leagues at tier 5 follow suit when admitting clubs from tier 6 and likewise the EoS when admitting clubs to tier 7 and so on.

The SFA had no grasp at all of this concept at the time, that was part of the problem.

Things have changed, there's been plenty of discussion driven by Brechin, but the line hasn't moved and as things stand it makes sense to follow this policy.

 

 

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2 hours ago, mcruic said:

 

Blairgowrie is closer to Falkirk than all teams in the North with the exception of Stonehaven.

The easiest answer is if tayside comes south then reorganisation of tier 6 rather than  5 would be the answer. If tayside becomes a lowland feeder and the 3 perthshire clubs move back along with splitting fife would probably be the answer. How you split fife could be negotiated

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So Stranraer would be more suited to play in a UK league than a Russian one.  You've just made the point.  If the Perthshire and Dundee clubs are closer to the Central Belt than they are to most of Aberdeenshire, why should they play in a league with Aberdeenshire teams?
No matter where you draw the line there are going to be teams just above it and teams just below it.

If Angus became part of the Lowland Region as you are proposing, then you could have Stonehaven saying that they're closer to Montrose than they are to Wick.

The natural consequence of your argument is therefore to include Aberdeenshire in the Lowland too, at which point you can make the exact same argument for Moray and so on.

Alternatively, you can look at the geography and population density of Scotland and draw a dividing line somewhere in the middle, which is basically what has been done. The pyramid is already very unbalanced towards the south, the last thing it needs is for even more clubs to end up in that region.


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3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

No matter where you draw the line there are going to be teams just above it and teams just below it.

If Angus became part of the Lowland Region as you are proposing, then you could have Stonehaven saying that they're closer to Montrose than they are to Wick.

The natural consequence of your argument is therefore to include Aberdeenshire in the Lowland too, at which point you can make the exact same argument for Moray and so on.

Alternatively, you can look at the geography and population density of Scotland and draw a dividing line somewhere in the middle, which is basically what has been done. The pyramid is already very unbalanced towards the south, the last thing it needs is for even more clubs to end up in that region.

 

Spot on ck,couldn't have said it better!!

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1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

No matter where you draw the line there are going to be teams just above it and teams just below it.

If Angus became part of the Lowland Region as you are proposing, then you could have Stonehaven saying that they're closer to Montrose than they are to Wick.

The natural consequence of your argument is therefore to include Aberdeenshire in the Lowland too, at which point you can make the exact same argument for Moray and so on.

Alternatively, you can look at the geography and population density of Scotland and draw a dividing line somewhere in the middle, which is basically what has been done. The pyramid is already very unbalanced towards the south, the last thing it needs is for even more clubs to end up in that region.

 

That's not strictly true - you have to go by clusters of teams, not outliers (like Stonehaven and Wick).  The cluster of teams in Tayside is closer to that of Fife/Lothian than it is to the Aberdeen/Moray cluster - hence why most Tayside clubs would have less travelling if they joined Tier 6 in the south than if they joined in the north.  The net travel increase would be greater for clubs in general if the Tayside clubs were put in the north.  No Tayside clubs apart from Montrose Roselea left the East Juniors for the North.  Especially when you look at the "clusters of teams who'll probably progress beyond the bottom tier", most of these are in the Dundee area.

I know there's an imbalance of clubs towards the south, but that's because there are 3 natural regions - north/west/east - based on the number of senior/junior clubs in each region, and because they're cramming 2 (East and West) into 1.  It's a separate issue, and moving all of Tayside north doesn't solve it.

It's not immediately obvious that Tayside is north of the "middle" - most of the clubs are in the southern part of the Scottish mainland as a whole (only Montrose and Brechin are north of the geographical "Centre of Mainland Scotland"). Many of the Tayside clubs are from Dundee or just outside (8 of the 17), with 6 from Angus and 3 from Perthshire (including Scone, who are further south than Luncarty).

It's important also to ask the Tayside clubs and not just those from clubs further south, who all seem to have opinions.  I'm originally from Perthshire - I'd consider it in the middle, but there's a feeling that it's easier to get south, especially once you get to Perth.  Also, when reorganisation of junior football took place, Tayside clubs were grouped with the Lothian and Fife clubs, not with the North clubs.

 

image.png.dd24898a009b89593af1ee593495c4d8.png

 

 

Edited by mcruic
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4 minutes ago, mcruic said:

...It's not immediately obvious that Tayside is north of the "middle" ...

 

image.png.dd24898a009b89593af1ee593495c4d8.png

 

 

The Grampian mountains make road travel as the crow flies from Dundee to Elgin impossible. That's the natural break point in terms of Scottish geography that funnels major transport links on an east to west axis  along the Moray Firth, which is why the Angus clubs wound up in the SFL or local juniors back in the day rather than the Highland League.

When the Club 42 boundary was agreed odds on nobody in Highland League circles stopped to think even for a moment whether they actually wanted Lochee United or Broughty Athletic as possible future members, because all they were thinking about was how to reorganize the senior grade that had no non-league teams on the east coast between Cove and Burntisland. The juniors were never expected to crash the party.

Club 42 was also probably expected to win nine times out of ten, so they probably weren't seriously expecting to have an Angus club relegated from the SPFL any time soon. The pyramid concept wasn't being taken seriously in progression terms and was just something they had to sign up to to keep Stewart Regan happy, who in turn was a puppet on a string in SFA Board terms for Alan McRae of Cove Rangers, the only HL club that actually wanted to move into the national league level.

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40 minutes ago, mcruic said:

That's not strictly true - you have to go by clusters of teams, not outliers (like Stonehaven and Wick).  The cluster of teams in Tayside is closer to that of Fife/Lothian than it is to the Aberdeen/Moray cluster - hence why most Tayside clubs would have less travelling if they joined Tier 6 in the south than if they joined in the north.  The net travel increase would be greater for clubs in general if the Tayside clubs were put in the north.  No Tayside clubs apart from Montrose Roselea left the East Juniors for the North.  Especially when you look at the "clusters of teams who'll probably progress beyond the bottom tier", most of these are in the Dundee area.

I know there's an imbalance of clubs towards the south, but that's because there are 3 natural regions - north/west/east - based on the number of senior/junior clubs in each region, and because they're cramming 2 (East and West) into 1.  It's a separate issue, and moving all of Tayside north doesn't solve it.

It's not immediately obvious that Tayside is north of the "middle" - most of the clubs are in the southern part of the Scottish mainland as a whole (only Montrose and Brechin are north of the geographical "Centre of Mainland Scotland"). Many of the Tayside clubs are from Dundee or just outside (8 of the 17), with 6 from Angus and 3 from Perthshire (including Scone, who are further south than Luncarty).

It's important also to ask the Tayside clubs and not just those from clubs further south, who all seem to have opinions.  I'm originally from Perthshire - I'd consider it in the middle, but there's a feeling that it's easier to get south, especially once you get to Perth.  Also, when reorganisation of junior football took place, Tayside clubs were grouped with the Lothian and Fife clubs, not with the North clubs.

 

image.png.dd24898a009b89593af1ee593495c4d8.png

 

 

I have no idea what these weird bubbles are supposed to be, but you keep making the same argument about travelling time for clubs on the boundaries. This is irrelevant, because again no matter where you put a boundary there are going to be edge cases.

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6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

When the Club 42 boundary was agreed odds on nobody in Highland League circles stopped to think even for a moment whether they actually wanted Lochee United or Broughty Athletic as possible future members.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/245852/new-pyramid-system-for-highland-league/

June 5th 2014 ahead of the first season of the pyramid system being in place.

Highland League President: Finlay Noble

Quote

In addition, if in the future any of the Tayside junior clubs such as Lochee United or Broughty Athletic wanted to go down the route of getting full membership and club licensing, and become involved in the pyramid-system, they would also apply to come into the Highland League.

...but they never once gave it a moment's thought.

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11 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I have no idea what these weird bubbles are supposed to be, but you keep making the same argument about travelling time for clubs on the boundaries. This is irrelevant, because again no matter where you put a boundary there are going to be edge cases.

The Highland boundary fault runs from Helensburgh to Stonehaven at the point where the mountains start. Keep everything SE of that in the LL catchment and you will wind up with very few edge cases because a large chunk of the country immediately to the NW of the HBF is very sparsely populated. The SFL traditionally covered the SE of the HBF area plus Aberdeen with the Highland League catering to the Moray Firth coast. Scotland's geography dictated that split.

Edited by LongTimeLurker
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19 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I have no idea what these weird bubbles are supposed to be, but you keep making the same argument about travelling time for clubs on the boundaries. This is irrelevant, because again no matter where you put a boundary there are going to be edge cases.

These are the current catchment areas of the "north" (juniors + highland), tayside, "east", "west" and "south" of Scotland leagues.  The yellow dots are their population centres, where more of the teams are based.  I'm not making the argument about travelling time for clubs on the boundaries - you are.  I'm making the argument that ALL current Tayside clubs would have less travelling in the LL feeders than in the HL feeders, even if most of the teams in the HL feeders are from one of the closer places to Tayside, Aberdeen.  So it wouldn't strike me as odd that any Tayside club might choose to go south rather than north.  I gave an example of this, along with travel distances which showed they'd cut 15 or 20 miles off their average travel times in the south compared to in the north - even if we take out Wick and Brora.

Edited by mcruic
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There has been zero interest from Tayside juniors in getting licensed and joining the Highland League despite plenty of floodlights having been installed over the years (Dundee junior clubs helped to pioneer floodlight use in Scotland post-WWII) along with more than adequate covered enclosures. The Highland League kent fine well that would be the case when they agreed to the Club 42 boundary.

We have moved on from there to a point where all of what used to be junior football is gradually aligning itself in tier 6 terms with either the LL or HL. That was never expected to happen and there is no indication that the HL have any intention of catering to Tayside in that context now there is a serious possibility of actually having to do so.

Edited by LongTimeLurker
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9 hours ago, Whitburn Vale said:

 West Lothian clubs dont want Tayside clubs anywhere near them.....,that's why they play in seperate north/south leagues because of travel costs.

Nor would it be a great incentive for bigger West Lothian junior teams,on seeing Dundee and Angus sides joining the EoS.

Angus in particular is NORTH !!!!

Brechin is but 10 miles from the Aberdeenshire border!!!

Spoke to some of the Whitburn committee at the weekend about the pyramid in the social club and they reiterated they do not want to travel to Tayside on a regular basis.

Did you explain to them that the EOS doesn't have any Tayside clubs? :)

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2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There has been zero interest from Tayside juniors in getting licensed and joining the Highland League despite plenty of floodlights having been installed over the years (Dundee junior clubs helped to pioneer floodlight use in Scotland post-WWII) along with more than adequate covered enclosures. The Highland League kent fine well that would be the case when they agreed to the Club 42 boundary.

We have moved on from there to a point where all of what used to be junior football is gradually aligning itself in tier 6 terms with either the LL or HL. That was never expected to happen and there is no indication that the HL have any intention of catering to Tayside in that context now there is a serious possibility of actually having to do so.

They obviously catered for them as they agreed with the line between highland and lowland it's more like the tayside teams never catered in the rest of the juniors leaving them behind to join the pyramid times up for teams on the outside making demands to get in 

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8 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Did you explain to them that the EOS doesn't have any Tayside clubs? :)

Yeah,they're well aware of that ginaro.

I sensed a slight warming to the enivitable path that is the pyramid and the EoS but when I asked the question about the possibility of Tayside clubs being involved they grew decidedly cold to the idea.

One question was,are they not meant to be playing under the Highland league?

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A question probably best asked on Fitba North where most Highland League people post rather than on here. As things stand at the moment, you never see Tayside mentioned in articles like this:

https://www.northern-times.co.uk/sport/promotion-and-relegation-could-be-introduced-to-the-highland-league-196481/

even as a future possibility in addition to the NCL and north region.

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23 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

A question probably best asked on Fitba North where most Highland League people post rather than on here. As things stand at the moment, you never see Tayside mentioned in articles like this:

https://www.northern-times.co.uk/sport/promotion-and-relegation-could-be-introduced-to-the-highland-league-196481/

even as a future possibility in addition to the NCL and north region.

On FN you'll find the same chat as you'll find on here. Those for Tayside inclusion, those against it. Those with a variety of solutions to how the pyramid should be amended: 3 way split (with Tayside included or not included North), 4 way split (North, Central, West & East), Highland League 2 etc. Those that know the Highland League is open to application so just apply if a club is interested. Its just like here on topics of the pyramid but with a Northern focus.

As for why Tayside Juniors aren't including in talks over the pyramid. There's no Tayside league to negotiate with.

Most changes down are club driven. The WoSFL only happened because clubs went to the LL. The last Highland League expansion only happened because Formartine United applied after getting annoyed with the North Region over how they were relegated. That triggered other clubs applying. Otherwise the Highland League were happy going along with a 15 team league. Kelty triggered other clubs looking closer at the EoSFL as a viable option.

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