Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

On 19/07/2020 at 17:36, FairWeatherFan said:

Instead of an example why not put a Tayside club in the Highland League as Team 18. Do they travel less than Wick Academy? Yes. If Wick can do it, Tayside can do it.

Is their much difference for Tayside compared to Brora Rangers and Fort William in terms of travel? Not really and its only going to favour Tayside over the long term.

 

HFL membership, won't happen.  No Taysjde Junior clubs currently  hold an SFA licence, and floodlights are few and far between. 

[Robert James]

On 19/07/2020 at 18:19, cmontheloknow said:

Did the SJFA ever publicise which of the 64 departing kept membership?

 

Presumably the (now senior) West clubs who intend to retain SJFA  membership, will become clear following the its 2020 AGM. 

I understand that this AGM is expected to take place on 22nd July.   Is this correct ? 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Robert James
typo error

[mcruic]

11 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

I have no issue with anyone proposing structures, but you need to approach this with some realism rather than a semi and an Excel file. 

You seem to take me for some nerdy kiddo - I know exactly what this is, and don't need it explained to me about "reality" and "never going to happen".  I know how things are - as with many things in life, many of the problems stem from having complete muppets in positions of authority.

In order to propose a structure - first someone has to come up with something, from outside or inside the "circle" - then approach the clubs.  If you approach the clubs first, you will get many opposing views.  Clubs need something presented to them that they can agree or disagree with, and then be given the chance to give reasons for their disagreement if they disagree.  These fears can then be taken on board, or allayed, or a bit of both.  When you vote in a national election, you are not given free choice - you are presented with a list of options.  This list of options is not drawn up by the people who vote.

The reason it's taken so long for anything to get to this stage is precisely because of many of the "real clubs" and the short-sightedness and false allegiance to "grades".  They have been the obstacle to the progression of a pyramid system rather than the solution.  And the very reason we have this incremental change and reluctance for others to join is because of the way the pyramid is being formed - in fits and starts.  I know in "reality" things have not happened smoothly - but to me that doesn't mean giving up on the possibility and accepting the "wisdom of the committees".

And seeing as you are a fan of pointless putdowns:
Approaching it with "a semi and an Excel file" is much better than approaching it impotently with no file...  As is evidenced by this thread being 1621 pages long.  Much of which is putdowns of people trying to come up with workable solutions rather than constructive discussions about which parts of the proposed solutions are problematic, and how they could be resolved.  Which is what this thread should be about.  Nobody cares about your "it will never work" if you don't have a plan of your own.

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by mcruic

[mcruic]

11 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

What actually changed about the pyramid with the creation of the WoSFL? The SPFL's still the same, the Lowland & Highland League is still the same, the EoSFL is the same, the SoSFL is the same minus one club. 

Does an addition count as a complete change?

I'll answer your points.

What actually changed about the pyramid with the creation of the WoSFL?
It opened the pyramid up to 1/3 of Scotland's non-league clubs, and the whole of the former Strathclyde, which had previously no connection to the pyramid (Whether or not it "could have" in the past is irrelevant - it did in the present, and it counts as a big change).

The SPFL's still the same, the Lowland & Highland League is still the same, the EoSFL is the same, the SoSFL is the same minus one club. 
Not talking about the Top 5 tiers - that's not the point here.
The EoSFL is not the same - in 2016/17 and 2017/18 it was a single division of 11 and 13 clubs respectively.  Now it is a thriving league with a top tier, and a second tier of 2 conferences, with 49 clubs.  Every single one of the EoS clubs from the 2016/17 league played in the lower conferences in 2019/20.  Quite clearly not the same league...
The SoSFL is the same - I'll give you that one.

Does an addition count as a complete change?
In a word, yes.  As outlined above, addition (of clubs or entire leagues) quite clearly constitutes significant change.  Addition of the Lowland League was a complete change.  All of these big changes have happened in the last 7 years, and the latest 2 have happened in 2 years.

In any case, if you don't count "addition" as change, then it would be relatively easy to sell to those who remain outside the pyramid - hey, there is no change, let's just add you.  But that's not proving to be the case.  So they clearly see it as a big change, even though in reality, most of the smaller teams would be playing the same teams in any new structure.

Edited July 21, 2020 by mcruic

[superbigal]

23 hours ago, Ginaro said:

The East Region handbook for 2020-21 makes no mention of them on page 7: https://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/media/2700/148940-east-region-junior-football-membership-booklet-20_21.pdf

I note Mark Stanton from Lochee is the new SJFA vice-president. Fife & Lothians Cup now gone, there's two East cups plus the North/Tayside cup.

The leagues are now called: East Region Tayside League and East Region Lothian League, exact set up to be decided based on start date.

That document if freshly released (No reason to doubt) , has Felix McKenna St Anthonys as President of the SJFA. &  Iain McQueen as asst to Tom J. 

Is he not Irvine Meadow ?

Surely these cannot be the main Junior officials going forward ?  

[Ginaro]

2 minutes ago, superbigal said:

That document if freshly released (No reason to doubt) , has Felix McKenna St Anthonys as President of the SJFA. &  Iain McQueen as asst to Tom J. 

Is he not Irvine Meadow ?

Surely these cannot be the main Junior officials going forward ?  

I got it from https://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/scottish-junior-fa/resources/constitution-and-rules/ and it specifically said 2020-21 so it must be newly released.

The SJFA constitution is still the 19-20 version, which makes sense as the AGM is yet to occur - presumably we'll soon find out if those two will remain at the top table. Though I think both those clubs will have kept SJFA membership, so in theory they could continue?

[glensmad]

That document if freshly released (No reason to doubt) , has Felix McKenna St Anthonys as President of the SJFA. &  Iain McQueen as asst to Tom J. 
Is he not Irvine Meadow ?
Surely these cannot be the main Junior officials going forward ?  

My understanding is that any official of a member club can put themself forward as president of the SJFA. So Felix can continue if he so desires. I also think that Iain McQueen is a neutral official.

The question will be, though, is the other former West Region SJFA delegates who were on the SJFA Management Committee. They cannot carry on in that role as the WRSJFA won't exist. Under the SJFA'S amended constitution the WoSFL has the right to elect two officials to the SJFA Management Committee, but I don't think they have any intention of doing so.

[Cyclizine]

11 hours ago, mcruic said:

You seem to take me for some nerdy kiddo...

Yup.

[archieb]

On 21/07/2020 at 01:27, Robert James said:

 

Presumably the (now senior) West clubs who intend to retain SJFA  membership, will become clear following the its 2020 AGM. 

I understand that this AGM is expected to take place on 22nd July.   Is this correct ? 

The SJFA AGM is on Thursday 23rd July.

[The Mantis]

On 20/07/2020 at 17:20, mcruic said:

As I said, Hawick would face less travel than Wick.  Just because Dundee would have less travel than 25% of the current HL, that is not a compelling reason to put them in as "North".

No, you compared Wick’s longest trip to Hawick’s shortest.

[mcruic]

On 21/07/2020 at 21:17, Cyclizine said:

Yup.

Sigh...  Just quit with the insults.  That's all I ask.  Disagree with me, but keep your playground shit at home.

 

[mcruic]

15 hours ago, The Mantis said:

No, you compared Wick’s longest trip to Hawick’s shortest.

Thanks  - of course you are right.  My point was that teams from further south than Dundee would have less travelling than Wick would.  Use Edinburgh instead of Hawick. It was in response to "if Dundee teams have less travel than Wick, then they can join the HL".  Likewise for Edinburgh teams then.  I was trying to point out the flaw in that argument - unfortunately, I picked a bad example.  But the point remains.  Wick is an outlier and they can't be used as a gauge for what teams can join the Highland League catchment area.

[Cyclizine]

8 hours ago, mcruic said:

Sigh...  Just quit with the insults.  That's all I ask.  Disagree with me, but keep your playground shit at home.

 

Grow up. There is an ignore user function on this forum if you're so thin skinned and unable to tolerate dissent.

HTH

Edited July 23, 2020 by Cyclizine

[FairWeatherFan]

You know what's strange to me considering a lot of people like ripping up Scottish football and starting with a blank slate. 

That's exactly what the SFA, SFL (yes, SFL that's how long ago this started), the EoSFL, SoSFL, HL did. With the SJFA kept in the loop as well.

And with that blank slate of a non-league they came up with 10 team Highland/Lowland Divisions split north & south at the Tay. With the existing leagues below

Then as that evolved the North/South split at the Tay remained.

That's how Dundee ended up in the Highland area. A blank slate and all the bodies involved going Dundee is in the North.

[mcruic]

2 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Grow up. There is an ignore user function on this forum if you're so thin skinned and unable to tolerate dissent.

HTH

Person A:  "I think Tayside clubs would have less travel in the LL area than the HL area, and here are some examples to illustrate what I am saying"
Person B: "You're a spreadsheet pyramidista, approaching things with a semi and an Excel sheet, you're a patronising arse"
Person A: "You can disagree, but do you need to insult?"
Person B: "Grow up"

Can you see what's wrong with Person B saying "grow up" here?  If you can't, I'm sure everyone else can.

But thanks for your really helpful suggestion anyway.  Must be great to be as wise as you!

 

  

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by mcruic

[mcruic]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You know what's strange to me considering a lot of people like ripping up Scottish football and starting with a blank slate. 

That's exactly what the SFA, SFL (yes, SFL that's how long ago this started), the EoSFL, SoSFL, HL did. With the SJFA kept in the loop as well.

And with that blank slate of a non-league they came up with 10 team Highland/Lowland Divisions split north & south at the Tay. With the existing leagues below

Then as that evolved the North/South split at the Tay remained.

That's how Dundee ended up in the Highland area. A blank slate and all the bodies involved going Dundee is in the North.

The North/South split remained more because the pyramid was mainly for the existing senior clubs, which were essentially the Highland league, and EoS and SoS leagues.  There were North and South qualifying cups for the Scottish Cup.  So there was already a sense of North/South as the accepted division below the SFL/SPFL, as no West/Tayside/Fife clubs were involved.  The split at the Tay was largely illustrative, as there were no teams from near this area that had to be accommodated.

Now with the balance of non-league football shifting, we have a bloated "South", with many of the best teams, and Tayside still in limbo, technically playing in an association with "South" teams (the ERSJFA), but in a "North" division.  The North/South split should probably be revisited, and a proper study done on what it would mean for Tayside clubs (and those who have to play them) if they joined either the LL or HL structures.

The fact that all the bodies above came up with 10 team HL/LL divisions shows they weren't really thinking of a future where all the juniors would join.  You don't have 10-team leagues at the top of any decent pyramid, as it constrains access below it for any progressive teams (as the 10-team SPFL League 2 currently does to aspiring Tier 5 teams).

If we look at how Scotland is divided for statistical purposes by the EU, it's South West, East, North East (Aberdeen/Aberdeenshire) and Highlands/Islands.  The first 3 correspond to the 3 junior divisions, while the last corresponds to the Highland/North Caledonian league.  Tayside comes under East. 

Tayside clubs seem to be happier being in with Edinburgh/Lothian teams at the moment (rather than being in the North region).  If not, they'd be a "South" division within the North Juniors rather than a "North" division within the East juniors.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, mcruic said:

The fact that all the bodies above came up with 10 team HL/LL divisions shows they weren't really thinking of a future where all the juniors would join. 

They did actually. The focus was always on tier 5 since that's step 1 and what was required to get the SFL on board. But thoughts went to what went below.

Where would the 8 other Highland League clubs have gone otherwise and one of those bodies mentioned is the SJFA. Because the Juniors were involved and considered when it came to the pyramid.

[LongTimeLurker]

52 minutes ago, mcruic said:

...The fact that all the bodies above came up with 10 team HL/LL divisions shows they weren't really thinking of a future where all the juniors would join...

...and they would have got away with it, if it hadn't been for those pesky kids fae Kelty.

Gordon Smith wanted the juniors in but nobody else appears to have been taking that possibility seriously at the time, especially Tom Johnston and the SJFA with all the £150k toilet block patter before some of the less cerebral pyramidistas stick their oar in. The pyramid working group mainly revolved around Cove Rangers and Spartans having a way in and maybe losing East Stirlingshire along the way, and Cove Rangers had someone positioned on the inside pulling the strings on the SFA Board so the opportunity provided by the SPFL merger talks could be exploited from a pyramid standpoint.

When they signed off on the new arrangements, there was clearly no expectation amongst SPFL clubs that Club 42 would wind up getting relegated more often than not as now appears likely over the next decade or so. A few years on and clubs as big as Clyde and Stirling Albion have been very much part of the mix and most recently Cove Rangers annihilated Berwick Rangers over two legs. Brechin City have belatedly woken up to the dangers posed by the new reality and now have someone on the SPFL Board pulling the strings where the boundary line is concerned, so that away games in Wick won't feature in their future (especially those on a wet windy Tuesday night in February before we get the usual patter in that regard).

There was no way the LL were going to sign off on a boundary shift at this season's AGM after what happened to Kelty Hearts and Brora Rangers on the promotion playoff, but the Angus clubs are unlikely to let the matter rest. It will be interesting to see what threats/inducements will be made/offered to get the LL to sign off on a boundary shift over the next year or so. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[mcruic]

I still think there's room for negotiation as to where Tayside clubs go - it should be up to them which part of the pyramid they wish to join.  I think if/when the West Lothian juniors join the EoS and the North Juniors join (nominally or otherwise) the HL pyramid, the Tayside clubs will have to make a decision on their future direction, as it's not possible to have an SJFA with only 17 clubs, all in Tayside.

There's also a lot of historical quirks that have been cemented with the pyramid (e.g. the fact that SoS and North Caley are essentially amateur leagues, but have 1 or 2 senior clubs in them).  Many SoS clubs are Tier 8 at best, but they're placed at Tier 6 beside the West Junior giants.  Having Auchinleck Talbot and Creetown at the same level of the pyramid just seems madness.

Hopefully it will all sort itself out in time, but I don't think putting leagues at artificially high levels helps things.

 

 

 

 

 

[Whitburn Vale]

1 hour ago, mcruic said:

The North/South split remained more because the pyramid was mainly for the existing senior clubs, which were essentially the Highland league, and EoS and SoS leagues.  There were North and South qualifying cups for the Scottish Cup.  So there was already a sense of North/South as the accepted division below the SFL/SPFL, as no West/Tayside/Fife clubs were involved.  The split at the Tay was largely illustrative, as there were no teams from near this area that had to be accommodated.

Now with the balance of non-league football shifting, we have a bloated "South", with many of the best teams, and Tayside still in limbo, technically playing in an association with "South" teams (the ERSJFA), but in a "North" division.  The North/South split should probably be revisited, and a proper study done on what it would mean for Tayside clubs (and those who have to play them) if they joined either the LL or HL structures.

The fact that all the bodies above came up with 10 team HL/LL divisions shows they weren't really thinking of a future where all the juniors would join.  You don't have 10-team leagues at the top of any decent pyramid, as it constrains access below it for any progressive teams (as the 10-team SPFL League 2 currently does to aspiring Tier 5 teams).

If we look at how Scotland is divided for statistical purposes by the EU, it's South West, East, North East (Aberdeen/Aberdeenshire) and Highlands/Islands.  The first 3 correspond to the 3 junior divisions, while the last corresponds to the Highland/North Caledonian league.  Tayside comes under East. 

Tayside clubs seem to be happier being in with Edinburgh/Lothian teams at the moment (rather than being in the North region).  If not, they'd be a "South" division within the North Juniors rather than a "North" division within the East juniors.

 West Lothian clubs dont want Tayside clubs anywhere near them.....,that's why they play in seperate north/south leagues because of travel costs.

Nor would it be a great incentive for bigger West Lothian junior teams,on seeing Dundee and Angus sides joining the EoS.

Angus in particular is NORTH !!!!

Brechin is but 10 miles from the Aberdeenshire border!!!

Spoke to some of the Whitburn committee at the weekend about the pyramid in the social club and they reiterated they do not want to travel to Tayside on a regular basis.