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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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16 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Because of where the Club 42 boundary was drawn some traditional Tayside clubs (Jeanfield Swifts, Kinnoull and now Luncarty) are already in the EoS. It's difficult to have a stable league with what's left because there aren't enough clubs for two sensibly sized divisions and the range of playing standards is huge. What's left is unlikely to be stable for long in other words as is also the case with the south section of the east region in West Lothian. If the EoS membership is willing to vote more Tayside clubs in at a regionalised tier 8, that's the probable destination regardless of what some people are still posting on here about the Highland League. Floodlights should solve some of the issues that there used to be in the juniors with midweek games.

I sense that many people sympathise with the Tayside clubs and who knows what will happen in the next year or two.

However, the pyramid is set up in a situation whereby the SPFL didn't want to have more than one league at Tier 5 but ended up with two leagues. Three leagues seems a long way off. The knock-on effect has been to fix a boundary between these two Tier 5 leagues and, looking at the whole country (which is what we need to keep in mind), and in order to provide some sort of balance in terms of club numbers and travel, Tayside is slotted in the Highland League region.

Is that unreasonable? It isn't, in my view, because we need to remember that the Lowland area doesn't only cover Edinburgh and Glasgow. Stating the bleedin' obvious, I know, but it also covers Ayrshire and the South of Scotland league areas so the travelling to these areas is less easy and more mileage is involved. When you take that into consideration it does make more sense that, whilst there are two  Tier 5 leagues, then the line has to be drawn somewhere and Dundee and Angus goes north. 

If Dundee and Angus clubs want to be able to reach Tier 5 and above it would make the Highland League stronger if they took that route. The more Dundee and Angus clubs in at Highland Tier 5 the less the number of long away trips - although there would be more for existing Highland clubs such as Brora, Wick, Clach etc.  It would also help if Tayside came in as one of three Tier 6 leagues in the Highland League area, which would have the spin-off of providing opportunities for Tayside clubs  to go for SFA membership/club licence/SFA cup entry etc etc.

Edited by Dev
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1 hour ago, Dev said:

...Three leagues seems a long way off....

It's completely dead in the water now and whether you like it or not Tayside is highly likely to be heading into the LL catchment regardless of what gets posted on here. That leaves the HL catchment seriously underpopulated relative to the LL, so some relatively small clubs are going to be able to be tier 5 there with a much easier path to the SPFL.

The WoS catchment is likely to be stronger than the EoS because the Glasgow area is where most of the population is in the central belt, so after a decade or so once the LL starts to reflect where the strength lies, the east is probably going to wind up being under-represented at tier 5. Clubs like Blackburn, Musselburgh, Camelon and Dunipace who had supporters and/or officials on here spewing venom at anyone talking up Option Z are unlikely to ever get a look in in that regard.

The machinations of Tom Johnston will soon be a distant memory, but a lot of people weren't thinking two or three steps ahead like you need to do to be successful in life.

Edited by LongTimeLurker
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42 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It's completely dead in the water now and whether you like it or not Tayside is highly likely to be heading into the LL catchment regardless of what gets posted on here. That leaves the HL catchment seriously underpopulated relative to the LL, so some relatively small clubs are going to be able to be tier 5 there with a much easier path to the SPFL.

The WoS catchment is likely to be stronger than the EoS because the Glasgow area is where most of the population is in the central belt, so after a decade or so once the LL starts to reflect where the strength lies, the east is probably going to wind up being under-represented at tier 5. Clubs like Blackburn, Musselburgh, Camelon and Dunipace who had supporters and/or officials on here spewing venom at anyone talking up Option Z are unlikely to ever get a look in in that regard.

The machinations of Tom Johnston will soon be a distant memory, but a lot of people weren't thinking two or three steps ahead like you need to do to be successful in life.

Tayside league wont be falling under the lowland league any time soon so wont be EOS problem so if they want to get in the pyramid they go north the line wont be getting moved any time soon unless you can show proof to back your fact up it will be LL problem then its just another 1 of your assumptions until you're proved wrong as usual fact is if tayside want in the pyramid then they need to go through the highland league and until they have some sort of dialogue then it wont happen anything else is just hot air talk 

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1 hour ago, Ped said:

Tayside league wont be falling under the lowland league any time soon so wont be EOS problem so if they want to get in the pyramid they go north the line wont be getting moved any time soon unless you can show proof to back your fact up it will be LL problem then its just another 1 of your assumptions until you're proved wrong as usual fact is if tayside want in the pyramid then they need to go through the highland league and until they have some sort of dialogue then it wont happen anything else is just hot air talk 

There's pretty much 4 options open to the East Region.

  1. Stay Junior.
  2. Apply to the EoSFL.
  3. Tayside split into their own Tier 6 league under the Highland League.
  4. Tayside join with the North Region to form a NoSFL under the Highland League.

Even back in the day when there would have been EoSFL, SoSFL, West Region, and East Region at Tier 6, the long term plan was to streamline. A Tayside/Midland League isn't going to sit under the Lowland League.

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47 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

There's pretty much 4 options open to the East Region.

  1. Stay Junior.
  2. Apply to the EoSFL.
  3. Tayside split into their own Tier 6 league under the Highland League.
  4. Tayside join with the North Region to form a NoSFL under the Highland League.

Even back in the day when there would have been EoSFL, SoSFL, West Region, and East Region at Tier 6, the long term plan was to streamline. A Tayside/Midland League isn't going to sit under the Lowland League.

a tayside/north super league would probably help the tayside problem. What they should do but unlikely to happen is to split the highland league in 2 and make it north and south and playoff to make a champion to playoff against the lowland champion. Wont be popular with the purists or the insistance that its 16 team leagues.

It is probably the Highland structure as a whole that needs sorted inclusive of tier 5 than it is in the Lowland region. The idea to split into 4 and falkirk be in with tayside and fife was a joke surely.

If Tayside was to come into Lowland region they would probably need to look at the Perthshire clubs going into that league and possibly look at fife having a flexible border of which way they wanted to go but id imagine st andrews and newburgh may be happier with perth and tayside travelling but hill of beath be happier with whats in the current EOSFL

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22 hours ago, gogsy said:

Has the West Region juniors association disbanded yet?

The East Region handbook for 2020-21 makes no mention of them on page 7: https://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/media/2700/148940-east-region-junior-football-membership-booklet-20_21.pdf

I note Mark Stanton from Lochee is the new SJFA vice-president. Fife & Lothians Cup now gone, there's two East cups plus the North/Tayside cup.

The leagues are now called: East Region Tayside League and East Region Lothian League, exact set up to be decided based on start date.

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7 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Tier 5 is the step below the national leagues, the SPFL is full of clubs who have consistently shown they are able to cope with travelling all over the country. Even to Elgin on a wet Tuesday night in February.

I'm sorry, but if clubs aren't prepared to concede that they have to travel further in a two division regional structure, the have no place playing in it and should stick to district football.

There'll never be a perfectly symmetrical structure so beloved of the spreadsheet pyramidistas here and any changes need to be made within the current structures.

Clubs at Tier 5 only have to travel half the country.  They get at least a year of that to try it out before they have the chance to go up to Tier 4.  Many clubs will be at Tier 5 for the foreseeable future - at least half of the Lowland and Highland League clubs are not going to win the league in the foreseeable future, so they will never need to travel Scotland-wide.

The "current structures" you talk about weren't there less than 10 years ago (Lowland League, West of Scotland League, for example) - That's about 2/3 of all the Tier 5 and Tier 6 clubs in Scotland who find themselves in leagues and structures that did not exist until 2013.

Your last sentence smacks of condescension and also a let's-make-do-with-the-crap-we-have attitude.  Neither are particularly helpful or forward-looking, and this type of attitude is what's held back the pyramid for so long.  

 

Edited by mcruic
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6 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

They'd also face less travel in the Highland League than some traditional Highland League clubs.

Only 4 of them - Wick, Brora, Fort William and Clachnacuddin.  They'd face more travel than all the rest.

As I said, Hawick would face less travel than Wick.  Just because Dundee would have less travel than 25% of the current HL, that is not a compelling reason to put them in as "North".

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1 minute ago, gogsy said:

The original Fife and Lothians cup was called the Brown cup, when the competition stopped in 1939/40 due to the war those pesky Lothians teams pinched it and used it for one of their own trophies. (allegedly)

Still bitter after 80 years?

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11 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Just because Dundee would have less travel than 25% of the current HL, that is not a compelling reason to put them in as "North".

That's not the reason. The Highland League has already taken most of the strength of the NCL and North Juniors over the years. Look at how Montrose Roselea have progressed through the North Region into a comforable mid-table Superleague side. Having struggled to in the bottom half of the East Premier when they reached that peak.

You've got the existing link between Tayside and the North through the longstanding cup competition they share. In the Superleague re-organisation of the Junior game there was the attempt to merge Tayside & North. Which was long before the idea of the pyramid.

Tayside Juniors & possibility of Angus SPFL clubs in the Highland League improves the Highland League. Travel is only highlighted so as not to be used as an excuse for it not happening.

What exactly is the compelling reason for putting them in the "South"?

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31 minutes ago, mcruic said:

...As I said, Hawick would face less travel than Wick.  Just because Dundee would have less travel than 25% of the current HL, that is not a compelling reason to put them in as "North".

The East Region Tayside League never rates a mention when this topic gets discussed in Highland League circles and the Highland League has to sign off on the pro/rel arrangements for any tier 6 feeder.

Meanwhile in contrast, Luncarty were voted into the EoS despite being north of the Club 42 line of latitude for registered home ground locations, and according to patriot this was justified by stating that there are no geographical restrictions in the EoS constitution on who can apply with the decision being made by the existing membership.

If EoS clubs can handle travelling to Luncarty or St Andrews, Dundee or even Forfar isn't drastically further. 

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5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's not the reason. The Highland League has already taken most of the strength of the NCL and North Juniors over the years. Look at how Montrose Roselea have progressed through the North Region into a comforable mid-table Superleague side. Having struggled to in the bottom half of the East Premier when they reached that peak.

You've got the existing link between Tayside and the North through the longstanding cup competition they share. In the Superleague re-organisation of the Junior game there was the attempt to merge Tayside & North. Which was long before the idea of the pyramid.

Tayside Juniors & possibility of Angus SPFL clubs in the Highland League improves the Highland League. Travel is only highlighted so as not to be used as an excuse for it not happening.

What exactly is the compelling reason for putting them in the "South"?

A longstanding cup competition (with only 2 or 3 inter-region games a season average for most clubs) is not a good reason - Tayside clubs also competed in a cup competition with Fife clubs, being located geographically between the North and Fife.

Likewise, the Lowland League/EoS League has now taken out most of the strength of the East Juniors.  So Montrose Roselea would also be a comfortable mid-table Superleague side in the East Juniors now.  North Juniors were always the weakest of the 3 (and before that 6) regions, so it's not really a surprise if a Tayside club plays in that league and does well.

And the "attempted" merger was exactly that - it didn't happen.

Travel is highlighted simply because leagues should be organised with this in mind (especially at tiers 6 and below, but even at tier 5).  There is nobody disputing that (some) Tayside clubs would improve the Highland League.  But they'd also improve the EoS and Lowland Leagues.  We can't just shove teams into the North because they don't have many teams there.

The main reason I'd put them in the South (I'd prefer North/West/East like the juniors) is because they are not in the North of the country.  Tayside is below the north-south midline of Scotland.

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4 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Likewise, the Lowland League/EoS League has now taken out most of the strength of the East Juniors.  So Montrose Roselea would also be a comfortable mid-table Superleague side in the East Juniors now. 

There is no Superleague in the East Juniors now. There's hasn't been since summer 2019.

 

7 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Travel is highlighted simply because leagues should be organised with this in mind (especially at tiers 6 and below, but even at tier 5). 

Which is why Tier 6 would be a Tayside league or a merged North/Tayside league with Tier 7 having a Tayside league below.

 

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Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

There is no Superleague in the East Juniors now. There's hasn't been since summer 2019.

 

Which is why Tier 6 would be a Tayside league or a merged North/Tayside league with Tier 7 having a Tayside league below.

 

I know there is no Superleague - they'd be comfortably mid-table if there was one now based on current membership.

Likewise, Tier 6 could be a Tayside league in the South or a merged Tayside/Fife league.

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39 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The East Region Tayside League never rates a mention when this topic gets discussed in Highland League circles and the Highland League has to sign off on the pro/rel arrangements for any tier 6 feeder.

Meanwhile in contrast, Luncarty were voted into the EoS despite being north of the Club 42 line of latitude for registered home ground locations, and according to patriot this was justified by stating that there are no geographical restrictions in the EoS constitution on who can apply with the decision being made by the existing membership.

If EoS clubs can handle travelling to Luncarty or St Andrews, Dundee or even Forfar isn't drastically further. 

Yes it is it's an hour to perth from falkirk. It's an hour 20 to dundee and 1 hr 35 to carnoustie 

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Would it ever be likely that the HL/LL /EOS both have Prem Div and Div 1 ,2 etc but at different tiers ?  A bit like down south with the Western and Hellenic leagues as an example. Go from say (junior) to LL 1 and then into the Prem , upgrading all the time. North juniors to HL 2 and then HL 1 etc ?

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3 hours ago, mcruic said:

Your last sentence smacks of condescension and also a let's-make-do-with-the-crap-we-have attitude.  Neither are particularly helpful or forward-looking, and this type of attitude is what's held back the pyramid for so long.  

Bollocks, you're being the patronising arse here. I'm a pragmatist. My point is that change will be gradual. You can't whip out your spreadsheet and wholesale change the structure of a system that's developed organically over more than a century, however nice that would be to many. There's too many vested interests and entrenched views to make rapid change happen. We've seen and will continue to see a slow shift as clubs (and it is the individual clubs here that are key) make the decisions on how best they wish to be structured.

Edited by Cyclizine
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1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

Bollocks, you're being the patronising arse here. I'm a pragmatist. My point is that change will be gradual. You can't whip out your spreadsheet and wholesale change the structure of a system that's developed organically over more than a century, however nice that would be to many. There's too many vested interests and entrenched views to make rapid change happen. We've seen and will continue to see a slow shift as clubs (and it is the individual clubs here that are key) make the decisions on how best they wish to be structured.

Your sentence smacked of condescension, whatever you may think, or whatever name-calling you wish to engage in.  Lack of respect for what you perceive as "spreadsheet pyramidistas".  They've got as much right to get into the debate about the structure of Scottish football as anyone involved with the clubs.  Members of the public not directly involved often talk more sense than those at the clubs.  And some of them will be producing the fixture lists and doing other "spreadsheety" things without which the clubs wouldn't have functioning leagues to play in.

The structure that you talk about - it just completely changed, wholesale, in the West Juniors in just a few months.  So of course you can change it.  The century before means nothing now - all these clubs are in the senior pyramid, and they jumped ship all at once, completely wiping out the "structure that had developed organically" in an instant.  So bollocks to the previously entrenched views and vested interests that these clubs had towards the pyramid - they were steamrollered out of the way.  It's the biggest single evidence that rapid change can and does happen.  East Juniors leaving en masse to go the EoS is another example of rapid change.

The shift has not been slow.  The Lowland part of the pyramid was set up only 7 years ago, and now it contains more than half the former SJFA clubs, the vast majority of whom have left in the last 2 years.  2 years is all it has taken to completely change the structure of Junior and Senior football.

Edited by mcruic
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6 minutes ago, mcruic said:

The structure that you talk about - it just completely changed, wholesale, in the West Juniors in just a few months.  So of course you can change it. 

What actually changed about the pyramid with the creation of the WoSFL? The SPFL's still the same, the Lowland & Highland League is still the same, the EoSFL is the same, the SoSFL is the same minus one club. 

Does an addition count as a complete change?

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3 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Your sentence smacked of condescension, whatever you may think, or whatever name-calling you wish to engage in.  Lack of respect for what you perceive as "spreadsheet pyramidistas".  They've got as much right to get into the debate about the structure of Scottish football as anyone involved with the clubs.  Members of the public not directly involved often talk more sense than those at the clubs.  And some of them will be producing the fixture lists and doing other "spreadsheety" things without which the clubs wouldn't have functioning leagues to play in.

The structure that you talk about - it just completely changed, wholesale, in the West Juniors in just a few months.  So of course you can change it.  The century before means nothing now - all these clubs are in the senior pyramid, and they jumped ship all at once, completely wiping out the "structure that had developed organically" in an instant.  So bollocks to the previously entrenched views and vested interests that these clubs had towards the pyramid - they were steamrollered out of the way.  It's the biggest single evidence that rapid change can and does happen.  East Juniors leaving en masse to go the EoS is another example of rapid change.

The shift has not been slow.  The Lowland part of the pyramid was set up only 7 years ago, and now it contains more than half the former SJFA clubs, the vast majority of whom have left in the last 2 years.  2 years is all it has taken to completely change the structure of Junior and Senior football.

This is not some giant game of Football Manager. There are real clubs, supporters and committees  involved here.

You talk about the rapid process, but it really hasn't been. It took years of discussion and compromise to get to the point of the Lowland League and Highland feeders (and even then, that wasn't the optimal solution).

This has been the catalyst: led by the clubs. We'll see incremental changes, but never the root and branch change that might be ideal, but simply isn't going to happen.

I have no issue with anyone proposing structures, but you need to approach this with some realism rather than a semi and an Excel file. 

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