Junior football, what is the future?

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, patriot1 said:

....What I would say LTL is that there is no Luncarty precedent. Tayside clubs were always able to apply to the EOS, we just didn't know it. 

An EoS officeholder was quoted on the BBC website about receiving inquiries from the west and north of the Tay that made it sound like those areas were outside the EoS catchment. Carnoustie Panmure talked about being in limbo where the pyramid was concerned at that point.

It suits the EoS to pretend that the Club 42 boundary was never an issue because they don't need to let anybody in at tier 6 that way at the expense of existing members and it also kills off any possible need for future PWG meetings.

Edited July 19, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, mcruic said:

I'm aware possibly the bottom half of the Highland League would eventually be at Tier 6, and there would be a lot of movement - possibly only 4 or 5 Tayside clubs would ever actually be at Tier 5.

If we take as an example

Instead of an example why not put a Tayside club in the Highland League as Team 18. Do they travel less than Wick Academy? Yes. If Wick can do it, Tayside can do it.

Is their much difference for Tayside compared to Brora Rangers and Fort William in terms of travel? Not really and its only going to favour Tayside over the long term.

[Andy groundhopper]

Seems like the Tayside club will travel - but other clubs can't be bothered in going to Tayside (not exactly  way out of reach)  Think it needs the Tayside to apply to leagues and see if they get knocked back or encouraged. Maybe just get used to the North juniors being out on their own, keep the junior fans happy at least.

[LongTimeLurker]

21 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Seems like the Tayside club will travel - but other clubs can't be bothered in going to Tayside (not exactly  way out of reach)  Think it needs the Tayside to apply to leagues and see if they get knocked back or encouraged...

The logistics surrounding midweek games in Forfar with early kickoffs due to the absence of floodlights did not go down well with clubs south of the Forth in the old east region setup. There's a reason why a lot of people in east nonleague circles were very keen to latch onto the Club 42 boundary as being some rigidly carved in stone edict from the SFA that also applied to the EoS as well, so they could ditch Tayside.

By all accounts this was still happening at a meeting of EoS and LL clubs related to SJFA pyramid entry a little over a year ago when SFA officeholders were trying to push the idea that a 16 club east region superleague that would have included a lot of Tayside clubs could be an LL feeder alongside the EoS, the west superleague and the SoS. 

Many of the usual suspects on here were ridiculing the SFA officeholders involved for supposedly not knowing their own rules and having to have it explained to them at this meeting. In reality, they should have been taking it as a signal that the Club 42 boundary wasn't anything like as rigid as they liked to think. Judging from patriot's posts the people that matter in blazer terms in the EoS did grasp that and subsequently changed tack.

Edited July 19, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[cmontheloknow]

Did the SJFA ever publicise which of the 64 departing kept membership?

[Andy groundhopper]

From the outside, a mainly Tayside feeder league sounds good, suppose you are always up against it geographically - and maybe not enough Tayside clubs are interested in joining the pyramid anyway, the same as the North juniors. Hopefully the pyramid will settle down and get organised asap, and clubs get used to the ups and downs.

[LongTimeLurker]

25 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

From the outside, a mainly Tayside feeder league sounds good, suppose you are always up against it geographically - and maybe not enough Tayside clubs are interested in joining the pyramid anyway, ...

Because of where the Club 42 boundary was drawn some traditional Tayside clubs (Jeanfield Swifts, Kinnoull and now Luncarty) are already in the EoS. It's difficult to have a stable league with what's left because there aren't enough clubs for two sensibly sized divisions and the range of playing standards is huge. What's left is unlikely to be stable for long in other words as is also the case with the south section of the east region in West Lothian. If the EoS membership is willing to vote more Tayside clubs in at a regionalised tier 8, that's the probable destination regardless of what some people are still posting on here about the Highland League. Floodlights should solve some of the issues that there used to be in the juniors with midweek games.

Edited July 19, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[mcruic]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Instead of an example why not put a Tayside club in the Highland League as Team 18. Do they travel less than Wick Academy? Yes. If Wick can do it, Tayside can do it.

Is their much difference for Tayside compared to Brora Rangers and Fort William in terms of travel? Not really and its only going to favour Tayside over the long term.

Hawick is closer to Aberdeen than Wick, so that's not really saying anything...  If Wick can do it so can Hawick - so Hawick can join the HL...

There is 10-15 miles extra travel north of the HL-LL boundary for Tayside clubs, even without Brora, Wick and Fort William.  That's given my example, which shows a possible lineup in 4-5 years, and with 3 extremely local derbies contributing almost nothing to the average milegae.  At first, the travel for Tayside clubs stepping up would be even greater, as there would only be the 1 Tayside club at Tier 5 to begin with if they accepted promotion.

 

 

 

[mcruic]

3 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Tayside doesn't stop at Dundee though - in fact Dundee is the southernmost place that would be included in the Highland League. The Tayside Juniors go as far north as Angus.

There's Forfar (2 clubs), Kirriemuir, Brechin, Arbroath, Carnoustie.  Brechin, the furthest north, is only half an hour from Dundee.  There's also Blairgowrie and Coupar Angus in Perthshire.  Blair is only about 25 mins from Perth.  Apart from those 8 clubs, the other 9 are in or just outside Dundee.

 

If you drew a line through the middle of mainland Scotland from West to East, Brechin, the most northerly town in the East Region juniors, would be on the South side of that line.  It's latitude is closer to Gretna than it is to Thurso.

Edited July 19, 2020 by mcruic

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 hours ago, mcruic said:

I'm aware possibly the bottom half of the Highland League would eventually be at Tier 6, and there would be a lot of movement - possibly only 4 or 5 Tayside clubs would ever actually be at Tier 5.

If we take as an example, the Top 4 Tayside clubs from last year (Broughty, Carnoustie, Lochee Utd, Downfield), and put them into a putative "Future Highland League" (Top 10 Highland + 4 North Juniors + 4 Tayside Juniors) or put them into the equivalent Lowland structure (Top 6 Lowland + 4 West of Scotland + 4 East of Scotland + 4 Tayside).

Average travel distances are as follows:
HIGHLAND
Carnoustie - 93 miles
Lochee Utd/Downfield - 94 miles
Broughty - 98 miles

LOWLAND
Lochee Utd/Downfield - 60 miles
Broughty - 62 miles
Carnoustie - 73 miles

Even if we take Brora and Wick out and replace them with Aberdeen teams, all 4 clubs have shorter travel distances in the Lowland structure.

Got to draw a line somewhere. At my work tayside stores are in the north region lol

[FairWeatherFan]

40 minutes ago, mcruic said:

That's given my example, which shows a possible lineup in 4-5 years.

How exactly is it an example of what things would look like in 4-5 years? It would take one Tayside club 4 years just to get to the Lowland League.

[patriot1]

4 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Is it a Junior myth that a Tayside team was advised to not proceed with an application in 2018?

No one seems sure. It has certainly never been confirmed that a Tayside team was given this advice. And it doesn't tie in with what the EOS are saying at the moment. 

 

[Ray Patterson]

Right the English system has teams in Gloucestershire and Oxfordshire playing in the National League North, so the travel argument isn't really relevant. If Scotland was as a population perfectly or even more reasonable spread out, then it would relevant, but the Highland Clearances put paid to that,

Tayside clubs already play a cup with teams from Aberdeenshire, so asking them to join the Highland region is reasonable point. For the vast majority of clubs it will make little to no difference in terms of travel and it allows clubs easier progression in the system.

[mcruic]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

How exactly is it an example of what things would look like in 4-5 years? It would take one Tayside club 4 years just to get to the Lowland League.

Take 4-5 and replace it with "however long it takes for leagues to stabilise" (Stabilise meaning the teams who are Tier 5 strength now actually reaching that level).  That might be 10 years - that's not the point I'm trying to make.  The point I'm making is that the top Tayside teams as a whole would have less travel in ANY Lowland structure compared with a similar Highland structure.

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by mcruic

[Enigma]

To be honest I like the idea of four way split in Tier 5 as a solution to the geography issues. I can think off the top

of my head that Spain splits four ways as tier 3 so it works well somewhere in the world. To show you what I mean I’ve carefully prepared a demonstration: a squiggly line crudely drawn over a map on my phone...

 

 

[LongTimeLurker]

That would go down like a lead balloon in Bo'ness. No derby with Lithgae Rose unless they both get into the SPFL and in with Dundee despite being much closer to Edinburgh and having an EH postcode. If Dumfries to Oban and Aberdeen to Wick are viewed as doable scenarios, then Hawick to Forfar should be as well. Think three way would be the sensible way to go at tier 5 and the Option Z scenario would have had a lot going for it if the LL had been willing to split. Ironically some of the people who were seething about it the most on here at the time support clubs that are unlikely to ever make it past tier 6 as things are currently configured but would have been in with a shout of tier 5 and being one promotion away from the SPFL under Option Z. Tom Johnston rant seethe SJFA splutter....

Edited July 20, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Cyclizine]

9 hours ago, mcruic said:

Take 4-5 and replace it with "however long it takes for leagues to stabilise" (Stabilise meaning the teams who are Tier 5 strength now actually reaching that level).  That might be 10 years - that's not the point I'm trying to make.  The point I'm making is that the top Tayside teams as a whole would have less travel in ANY Lowland structure compared with a similar Highland structure.

 

Tier 5 is the step below the national leagues, the SPFL is full of clubs who have consistently shown they are able to cope with travelling all over the country. Even to Elgin on a wet Tuesday night in February.

I'm sorry, but if clubs aren't prepared to concede that they have to travel further in a two division regional structure, the have no place playing in it and should stick to district football.

There'll never be a perfectly symmetrical structure so beloved of the spreadsheet pyramidistas here and any changes need to be made within the current structures.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Cyclizine

[Enigma]

That would go down like a lead balloon in Bo'ness. No derby with Lithgae Rose unless they both get into the SPFL and in with Dundee despite being much closer to Edinburgh and having an EH postcode. If Dumfries to Oban and Aberdeen to Wick are viewed as doable scenarios, then Hawick to Forfar should be as well. Think three way would be the sensible way to go at tier 5 and the Option Z scenario would have had a lot going for it if the LL had been willing to split. Ironically some of the people who were seething about it the most on here at the time support clubs that are unlikely to ever make it past tier 6 as things are currently configured but would have been in with a shout of tier 5 and being one promotion away from the SPFL under Option Z. Tom Johnston rant seethe SJFA splutter....

Yeah, you’re never going to please everybody I’m afraid.

[FairWeatherFan]

10 hours ago, mcruic said:

The point I'm making is that the top Tayside teams as a whole would have less travel in ANY Lowland structure compared with a similar Highland structure.

Which isn't in dispute and doesn't need to a jerry-rigged example to make the point.

They'd also face less travel in the Highland League than some traditional Highland League clubs.

[Dev]

16 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

From the outside, a mainly Tayside feeder league sounds good, suppose you are always up against it geographically - and maybe not enough Tayside clubs are interested in joining the pyramid anyway, the same as the North juniors. Hopefully the pyramid will settle down and get organised asap, and clubs get used to the ups and downs.

The incentive for Tayside and North Junior clubs is the SFA Licence but, to gain that, clubs have to be in a senior (i.e. Pyramid) league.

Another incentive may be the Under 20's Development League concept which, in effect, is there for the Highland and Grampian/Aberdeenshire clubs via the North of Scotland and Aberdeenshire Under 20's leagues. Inverness Athletic and Dyce are, apparently, moving up to these next season. Dyce having gained membership of the Aberdeenshire FA but aren't senior as such.

There needs to be the equivalent Under 20's created for Tayside/Angus - unless there is one already, don't know.