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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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6 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What happens if the League 2 clubs said OK we will agree to save Hearts for you but only if  our preferred14-14-14 format ends or severely restricts the Club 42 playoff? The lower division SPFL diddies enforced a cartel system for decades when they had the leverage to do that sort of thing. Not good that the playoff didn't happen this year but it's important to bear in mind that relegation playoffs were cancelled in the other three divisions as well.

What would happen is that the Lowland League and Highland League would say "Erm no, we have to agree to any such changes under the SPFL rules."

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2 hours ago, Dev said:

I think that the HL and LL are likely to be well advised legally. They are already onto this.

The SPFL isn't dealing with impoverished mugs and I suspect that the SPFL won't understand that until it's too late for their own confused priorities..

This may be the perfect opportunity for the pyramid to become a reality upon terms set out by the Tier 5 leagues.

 

28 minutes ago, Cameron Wilson said:

HL and LL should aggressively pursue legal action. Scottish football has been held back in the dark ages long enough.

 

I can't see what realistic case the HL or LL (or the individual clubs) could make here. Yes these clubs have been denied a play-off, but it is very obvious that it would not have been practical to hold these play-offs as a result government advice - in fact it would quite possibly be illegal to do so. The fact that both the Highland and Lowland Leagues chose to terminate their own seasons shows that both of those leagues acknowledged that fact too. The SPFL certainly have no moral (or legal) obligation to expand their membership as a result.

With all due respect, if they're not worried about legal challenges from Rangers or Hearts as a result of the decision to call the season early, then they're not going to be worried about the Lowland League or Highland League.

This is not a case of the SPFL choosing to pull up the drawbridge (even if some of the League 2 clubs might want to), it's a case of the SPFL having to take the only practical option to handle the early termination of a league season which is caused by circumstances completely outwith their control. The play-off remains in place for future seasons - that has never really been in doubt despite people wanting to muddy the waters. Hopefully longer term we can see this becoming an automatic place once the League 2 clubs realise, as the SPL clubs did in 2013, that it's useful to have more chance to get back up if you do go down.

 

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5 hours ago, craigkillie said:

 

 

I can't see what realistic case the HL or LL (or the individual clubs) could make here. Yes these clubs have been denied a play-off, but it is very obvious that it would not have been practical to hold these play-offs as a result government advice - in fact it would quite possibly be illegal to do so. The fact that both the Highland and Lowland Leagues chose to terminate their own seasons shows that both of those leagues acknowledged that fact too. The SPFL certainly have no moral (or legal) obligation to expand their membership as a result.

With all due respect, if they're not worried about legal challenges from Rangers or Hearts as a result of the decision to call the season early, then they're not going to be worried about the Lowland League or Highland League.

This is not a case of the SPFL choosing to pull up the drawbridge (even if some of the League 2 clubs might want to), it's a case of the SPFL having to take the only practical option to handle the early termination of a league season which is caused by circumstances completely outwith their control. The play-off remains in place for future seasons - that has never really been in doubt despite people wanting to muddy the waters. Hopefully longer term we can see this becoming an automatic place once the League 2 clubs realise, as the SPL clubs did in 2013, that it's useful to have more chance to get back up if you do go down.

 

This season is unique and the main issue that the HL/LL look to in the pyramid playoffs is that it required that all parties agree to any amendments  in the current rules. Yet within the current rules there are points that the SPFL can argue in their favour. Some of the responsibility for this also falls on the SFA as they're the ones that technically oragnise the HL v LL portion of the playoff. Its not like they've been proactive in this matter and let all 3 league bodies basically end their seasons.

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Difficult situation as the season never finished, would have been good to have say PPG across the board, SPL downwards and then possibly have a play off for Kelty,Brora etc prior to next season starting. Also, would it be beneficial to keep the transfer window open throughout the season ? As there's a possibility that such pandemics could be a regular thing, isn't it time to have new rules set in stone re seasons ending and at least the clubs know beforehand.

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10 hours ago, sdr71 said:

The League 2 clubs need the big boys, but the big boys do not need League 2, and they would do well to remember that.  

The big boys were willing to relegate Hearts to avoid reconstruction on League 2's selfish 14-14-14 terms, so looks like the League 2 clubs have very little leverage now under the new SPFL's voting system. The 11-1 top tier requirement will be very difficult to unlock. That should keep the pyramid intact well into the future through the admittedly less than ideal Club 42 playoff.

10 hours ago, santheman said:

You should go and read the Falkirk one 

 

 

Edited by LongTimeLurker
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Let's face it the sfa and 42 spfl football league clubs are bizarrely making the sjfa and it's regional associations look competent.

What have the junior clubs let themselves in for getting involved in this circus! 

They'd have been far better served flushing out those that needed flushing out years ago in the sjfa and regions and continuing to make what was a great alternative to senior football even better by giving people now  totally disgruntled with the senior game an excellent alternative instead they have got themselves involving in the mother of all shitstorms that will last a generation. 

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1 hour ago, traffordab said:

Let's face it the sfa and 42 spfl football league clubs are bizarrely making the sjfa and it's regional associations look competent.

What have the junior clubs let themselves in for getting involved in this circus! 

They'd have been far better served flushing out those that needed flushing out years ago in the sjfa and regions and continuing to make what was a great alternative to senior football even better by giving people now  totally disgruntled with the senior game an excellent alternative instead they have got themselves involving in the mother of all shitstorms that will last a generation. 

The SJFA should indeed have flushed out their own deadwood, as you say, but did not due to a combination of misplaced loyalty and sheer inability to do anything for themselves. Perhaps the East and North regions may be able to do so now (though I wouldn't bet on it).

Edited by Bad Wolf
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37 minutes ago, traffordab said:

Let's face it the sfa and 42 spfl football league clubs are bizarrely making the sjfa and it's regional associations look competent.

What have the junior clubs let themselves in for getting involved in this circus! 

They'd have been far better served flushing out those that needed flushing out years ago in the sjfa and regions and continuing to make what was a great alternative to senior football even better by giving people now  totally disgruntled with the senior game an excellent alternative instead they have got themselves involving in the mother of all shitstorms that will last a generation. 

It's an unprecedented situation we find ourselves in at the moment, and unfortunately it looks like self-interest rules the roost as it often will.

Having said that, don't compare and contrast the SJFA as some now-lost paragon of virtue and competence...at times it made the Keystone Kops look organised, and towards the end even freely admitted it was placed the importance of its own survival over the interests of its member clubs.

If you want to talk circuses, in the last few years it had gone full-on Ringling Brothers, which is why teams have been queueing up to leave...less to do with the promised land of milk and honey and very little to do with a glass ceiling that will only affect a tiny minority of clubs anyway...more that almost anything can be seen as an upgrade on what had become a toxic combination of arrogance, resistance to change, inertia and yeah...self-interest.

 

Edited by Hillonearth
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7 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I can't see what realistic case the HL or LL (or the individual clubs) could make here. Yes these clubs have been denied a play-off, but it is very obvious that it would not have been practical to hold these play-offs as a result government advice - in fact it would quite possibly be illegal to do so. The fact that both the Highland and Lowland Leagues chose to terminate their own seasons shows that both of those leagues acknowledged that fact too. The SPFL certainly have no moral (or legal) obligation to expand their membership as a result.

Hopefully Brora and Kelty will organise a pre season friendly and offer Brechin a chance to play the winner. Just for a laugh, eh.

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8 hours ago, craigkillie said:

What would happen is that the Lowland League and Highland League would say "Erm no, we have to agree to any such changes under the SPFL rules."

Precisely!

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8 hours ago, craigkillie said:

 

 

I can't see what realistic case the HL or LL (or the individual clubs) could make here. Yes these clubs have been denied a play-off, but it is very obvious that it would not have been practical to hold these play-offs as a result government advice - in fact it would quite possibly be illegal to do so. The fact that both the Highland and Lowland Leagues chose to terminate their own seasons shows that both of those leagues acknowledged that fact too. The SPFL certainly have no moral (or legal) obligation to expand their membership as a result.

With all due respect, if they're not worried about legal challenges from Rangers or Hearts as a result of the decision to call the season early, then they're not going to be worried about the Lowland League or Highland League.

This is not a case of the SPFL choosing to pull up the drawbridge (even if some of the League 2 clubs might want to), it's a case of the SPFL having to take the only practical option to handle the early termination of a league season which is caused by circumstances completely outwith their control. The play-off remains in place for future seasons - that has never really been in doubt despite people wanting to muddy the waters. Hopefully longer term we can see this becoming an automatic place once the League 2 clubs realise, as the SPL clubs did in 2013, that it's useful to have more chance to get back up if you do go down.

 

One thought is that the rules are in place and there's no provision for an alternative in an extraordinary situation which has been caused by the Covid-19 virus.

In other words they're stuck with their own rules so they have to make them work. In fairness no-one ever thought of a pandemic when the rules were agreed by the SFA, SPFL, HL and LL but it's hard lines for the SPFL if they cannot come up with an appropriate solution. After all a solution to the Tier 5/SPFL 2 situation is really simple to find, whatever-else happens within the SPFL.

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2 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Difficult situation as the season never finished, would have been good to have say PPG across the board, SPL downwards and then possibly have a play off for Kelty,Brora etc prior to next season starting. Also, would it be beneficial to keep the transfer window open throughout the season ? As there's a possibility that such pandemics could be a regular thing, isn't it time to have new rules set in stone re seasons ending and at least the clubs know beforehand.

Incomplete playing seasons are very rare but they have happened, under exceptional circumstances, in the past within the UK/NI. Think of War-time situations, Foot-and-Mouth.

The Football Associations in the UK/NI, understandably, didn't consider it necessary to build in provisions for what happens when seasons are terminated early through no fault of the organisations involved. This is now showing to have been a mistake. This early close-down of a season situation could happen again - even in 2020/21.

Rules need to be brought in by the SFA and their equivalents elsewhere in UK/NI so that everyone knows where they stand if the worst re-occurs.

In the mean-time  the FA's need to accept responsibility for their own pyramids. Pyramids are a form of binding contractual arrangement after all and that means that movement has to continue, thus avoiding a constraint of trade situation, even if it is only upwards i.e. no relegations unless an individual club desires to take relegation.  

Imbalances due to certain divisions/leagues gaining one or two extra clubs to be ironed out at the end of the next full season via additional, pre-agreed relegations.

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1 hour ago, traffordab said:

Let's face it the sfa and 42 spfl football league clubs are bizarrely making the sjfa and it's regional associations look competent.

What have the junior clubs let themselves in for getting involved in this circus! 

They'd have been far better served flushing out those that needed flushing out years ago in the sjfa and regions and continuing to make what was a great alternative to senior football even better by giving people now  totally disgruntled with the senior game an excellent alternative instead they have got themselves involving in the mother of all shitstorms that will last a generation. 

Such wonderful hind-sight.

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16 minutes ago, Dev said:

One thought is that the rules are in place and there's no provision for an alternative in an extraordinary situation which has been caused by the Covid-19 virus.

In other words they're stuck with their own rules so they have to make them work. In fairness no-one ever thought of a pandemic when the rules were agreed by the SFA, SPFL, HL and LL but it's hard lines for the SPFL if they cannot come up with an appropriate solution. After all a solution to the Tier 5/SPFL 2 situation is really simple to find, whatever-else happens within the SPFL.

They have come up with an appropriate solution, which is in fact the only one which is practically possible. Even if the SPFL agreed a reconstruction, technically they would still be breaching this rule in exactly the same way, since they would still not be holding the play-offs which they are obliged to hold under their own rules.

I have a lot of sympathy for Kelty and Brora (and Bonnyrigg) here, and ideally I would like to see either a 12 team Championship or a 12 team League 2 to , but there are a number of practical issues surrounding that and the SPFL are certainly not obliged to do that.

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It would be a huge struggle to get the League Two clubs to back it anyway.  Look at how well Cove Rangers have done this season (Edinburgh City in second too).  The chances are that Brora and Kelty would be promoted and not go straight back down next season.  Increase the league to 14 teams and then relegated 2 or 3 next season (to go back down to 42 teams) and there's a decent chance those 2 or 3 clubs would be established SPFL clubs.  Scottish football is generally about self-protectionism.  Clubs are going to do what they can to keep it at relegation playoffs rather than automatic relegation at the bottom of League Two and they certainly aren't going to be keen on promoting two non-league clubs at once and threatening their SPFL status further.

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