Junior football, what is the future?

[Marshmallo]

2 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

"Aye I love the Junior Cup - good to see youngsters get a chance!"

The name is part of the issue.

With who? People who wouldn't go either way?

The people you need to sell this cup tournament to are the floating voter one game a year day out types in places like Linlithgow or Ayrshire. "Junior" and "non-league" are synonyms to these people.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

With who? People who wouldn't go either way?

The people you need to sell this cup tournament to are the floating voter one game a year day out types in places like Linlithgow or Ayrshire. "Junior" and "non-league" are synonyms to these people.

Until fairly recently and to most "Junior" people I knew it was the Scottish Cup. And the Scottish Cup was the big Scottish Cup. Junior never got a mention.

[Stag Nation]

29 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

By Tuesday, there will be 63 ex WRSJFA in the new WOSL.
The majority of which are only there because participation in the SJ Cup will continue.

If that were the case, then why didn't they simply stay put?

Maybe because the pyramid offering is far superior. Or they're fed up of being lied to by the junior "management". Or both.

[Beenzon-Toste]

 
 
 

 
Sorry, but that's utter utter nonsense. 46 out of 63 West Region clubs expressed an interest in joining the WoSFL before there was any suggestion of the Scottish Junior Cup still being available. That's 73% of the clubs. I suggest you research the word "majority".
 

The utter nonsense is that you believe expressing an interest is the same as applying. Some clubs were obviously expressing an interest because, quite rightly, they wanted to know what was on offer from both sides.

[Stag Nation]

12 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

With who? People who wouldn't go either way?

The people you need to sell this cup tournament to are the floating voter one game a year day out types in places like Linlithgow or Ayrshire. "Junior" and "non-league" are synonyms to these people.

But floating voters outside "places like Linlithgow or Ayrshire" have never heard of it. And to them "junior" is a synonym for "second-rate".

[Jerry Macguire]

2 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

21 minutes ago, glensmad said:

 
 
 

 
Sorry, but that's utter utter nonsense. 46 out of 63 West Region clubs expressed an interest in joining the WoSFL before there was any suggestion of the Scottish Junior Cup still being available. That's 73% of the clubs. I suggest you research the word "majority".
 

The utter nonsense is that you believe expressing an interest is the same as applying. Some clubs were obviously expressing an interest because, quite rightly, they wanted to know what was on offer from both sides.

Utter nonsense is you suggesting the majority of clubs are only applying because they can still play in the SJ Cup. Clearly the clubs who have expressed an interest and then applied did so because they liked what the heard.  

[glensmad]

The utter nonsense is that you believe expressing an interest is the same as applying. Some clubs were obviously expressing an interest because, quite rightly, they wanted to know what was on offer from both sides.

Of course not all of them would have applied, but I'm willing to say that I reckon at least 40 clubs would have applied regardless of whether the Scottish Junior Cup was an option or not. You disagree, fair enough. I guess we'll never know.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

47 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

By Tuesday, there will be 63 ex WRSJFA in the new WOSL.
The majority of which are only there because participation in the SJ Cup will continue.
This suggests to me that the SJ Cup is far from dead.

As I said before, its definitely alive but will eventually fade into the distance once the attitude of saving the grade brigade change with the youth coming into the committee rooms and the teams that are joining seeing how important the WOS league and Lowland league is to their progression.  As I said before, I'm junior through and through but WTF its been dwindling for years and now in the west all there will be is a Junior cup, which in turn will fade into the distance.

A wee query what will these teams who are moving from the junior grade to the senior grade have to play to the juniors  to retain their membership to play in one cup and what will they pay to the WOS league to participate in the season.  We all know these new teams wont pay for fines and certain insurances are covered etc.. so it will be good to know what they are paying out.
 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Dev]

1 hour ago, Lapsed Junior said:

So we can look forward to a sponsored "Scottish Junior 'But Not Really' Cup"? Not sure about sporting integrity but that reeks. Leave it to the rump and move on. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Any news on Yoker applying to the West of Scotland League?

If they do will they be thinking of putting in an Under 20's side in the Development League in the next few seasons?

[Lowland team]

The south challenge cup.is the main trophy for clubs in the lowland league area.eos.sos.& wos.games are set around the league fixture's which all clubs take part in.(compulsory) the Scottish junior cup will be for clubs who have or will retain sjfa membership and will be played around league games and scc ties.nobody tried to stop participation in it.but will always be further down the list for active pyramid clubs.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, Marten said:

Challenge cup attendances are affected by some kind of novelty factor as these teams rarely play first teams competitively. If they'd play these teams in a league, the novelty factor would soon wear off. In The Netherlands for example, the colts of Ajax and to a lesser extent PSV got decent (away) attendances in cup games when they played in the cup. Especially Ajax have fans all over the country just like the ugly sisters here, and this gave fans in other parts of the country a chance to watch their youngsters locally. When they joined the Eerste Divisie (2nd tier), high attendances were predicted as a result. The first season it wasn't too bad, but now the colt teams are consistently (and by quite a distance) the teams with the worst attendances in the division. The only times they ever got 4 figure crowds was due to away crowds when playing big(ish) clubs, especially when these clubs were in a promotion/title challenge. Home attendances are often only just in 3 figures and sometimes even only double figures. There have literally been loads of cases of more family/friends of the players being in the crowd on freebies than paying home fans. In some of the games between colt teams the crowd was only in double figures. In away games it's very common for these teams to only get single figure crowds in the away end, sometimes even nobody at all!

I don't see why Scotland would be any different.

Yup. I've been to Celtic and Rangers reserve games with crowds in double figures - probably a majority were family of players, and a good number were scouts. OK, they were on midweek afternoons, but for clubs that average upwards of 50,000 for first team home games it's a clear sign of disinterest. 

[Dev]

Decided to include Hurlford United and Lesmahagow - subject to verification - like Lugar Boswell Thistle. Haven't included Bonnyton Thistle or Glasgow University yet.

54 Clubs which have Applied so far/have said that they will be applying:			(** means Subject to Verification)
Premiership (15)	Championship (15)	League One (14)	League Two (9)	Others (1)
Auchinleck Talbot	Arthurlie	Bellshill Athletic	Ashfield	Drumchapel Utd PYM
Beith Juniors	Blantyre Victoria	East Kilbride Thistle	Forth Wanderers
Benburb	Cambuslang Rangers	Girvan	Johnstone Burgh
Clydebank	Cumbernauld United	Glasgow Perthshire	Lugar Boswell Thistle **
Cumnock Juniors	Dalry Thistle	Greenock Juniors	Muirkirk Juniors
Glenafton Athletic	Darvel	Kello Rovers	Newmains United
Hurlford United **	Gartcairn Juniors	Lanark United	St Anthony's
Irvine Meadow XI	Irvine Victoria	Larkhall Thistle	Vale of Clyde
Kilbirnie Ladeside	Kilsyth Rangers	Lesmahagow Juniors **	Vale of Leven
Kilwinning Rangers	Neilston Juniors	Maryhill
Kirkintilloch Rob Roy	Petershill	Port Glasgow Juniors
Largs Thistle	Renfrew	Royal Albert
Pollok	Shotts Bon Accord	Shettleston
Rossvale	St Roch's	Wishaw Juniors
Rutherglen Glencairn	Whitletts Victoria
Troon
(11) Not known to have applied so far:
Premiership (0)	Championship (1)	League One (2)	League Two (6)	Others (2)
	Craigmark Burntonians	Ardrossan Winton Rovers	Annbank United	Bonnyton Thistle
		Carluke Rovers	Ardeer Thistle	Glasgow University
			Maybole Juniors
			Saltcoats Victoria
			Thorniewood United
			Yoker Athletic

[peasy23]

Most of the clubs who haven't officially declared one way or other are always very quiet on social media, so no real surprise that there have been no announcements from them.

[Salvo Montalbano]

I know it's positive in a way but it's another one of these articles where the phrase "breathes new life into the junior game" or similar is used. They really don't seem to understand that a) the Junior game and Senior game is exactly the same game - football played between two teams of 11 in front of a crowd - and b) that they won't be in a Junior league anymore. It's more evidence of the bizarre "protect the grade" mentality that many Junior folk seem to have. In the same article it again moans about potential travel in conferences and mentions teams that are already within the same basic structure they are already playing in (a few promotions or relegations and they'd be playing these teams in the existing West Juniors anyway). The whole "all-in or none-in" is causing a lot of resentment and confusion but bizarrely a lot of these articles still blame the Lowland League for this when it was their own West Region committee who have forced it upon them.

[Beenzon-Toste]

Utter nonsense is you suggesting the majority of clubs are only applying because they can still play in the SJ Cup. Clearly the clubs who have expressed an interest and then applied did so because they liked what the heard.  

Agreed, because what they heard was that they could keep their SJFA membership.

[Guest]

If you're not going to answer direct questions then I'm not sure we can continue discussing. 

All I am saying is slap the label "Scottish Junior Cup" on any national tournament regardless of governing body or trophy and you would have a lot of your marketing all done for you. To pretend any of these other tournaments carry the same name value and therefore financial benefit is deliberately choosing a party line driven by "pyramid = perfect, juniors = backwards".

That really isnt what I said and because you dont like the reality, as it doesnt suit your narrative, you choose to go down the chosen junior bad line.

 

The junior cup, despite what you think, doesn't sell itself. It never has. It isnt the junior cup that draws the crowds, its the teams on the day. There are also a lot of people who attend the junior cup final who couldn't care less who the teams and players are, they are there for the day, most likely because if a family member, a community or to scout for their own clubs.

 

Ask anyone outside of junior football what they think of it and they will say they know of it but it doesnt mean anything to them.

 

The advertising would be better off not having the word junior anywhere near it, that in itself would turn potential sponsors away.

 

Imagine two sales pitches, one where you have to spend lots of time explaining what junior football is, the heritage, the special feeling, the grade etc.....then the other, it's the biggest cup in the non league professional game and includes 164 clubs from tier 5 in tbe pyramid down the way. No mish mash, no half in half out.

 

And yes, i think that anything the sjfa have their mitts on has tbe potential to be bad, that is an opinion formed over many, many years of playing junior football and having seen exactly how they conduct their business.

 

[Jerry Macguire]

5 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

38 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Utter nonsense is you suggesting the majority of clubs are only applying because they can still play in the SJ Cup. Clearly the clubs who have expressed an interest and then applied did so because they liked what the heard.  

Agreed, because what they heard was that they could keep their SJFA membership.

So you agree you were talking nonsense? 

[Guest]

Agreed, because what they heard was that they could keep their SJFA membership.

So the clubs wouldnt have applied if they couldn't?

[Countryman]

5 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

38 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Utter nonsense is you suggesting the majority of clubs are only applying because they can still play in the SJ Cup. Clearly the clubs who have expressed an interest and then applied did so because they liked what the heard.  

Agreed, because what they heard was that they could keep their SJFA membership.

What makes it worth keeping SJFA membership?

A) From a financial point of view.

B) From other points of view.

I'm asking this as an outsider, looking in, who is ignorant of the answers; but I expect a lot of clubs will be asking this in their own way for their own reasons. Please elucidate.

[Sergeant Wilson]

28 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Yup. I've been to Celtic and Rangers reserve games with crowds in double figures - probably a majority were family of players, and a good number were scouts. OK, they were on midweek afternoons, but for clubs that average upwards of 50,000 for first team home games it's a clear sign of disinterest. 

I used to watch Celtic Reserves when they played at Airdrie, usually on a Monday afternoon, then drive past guys with Celtic shirts on, hanging about the local shops, oblivious that their heroes were about quarter of a mile away.

Reserve teams will add nothing.