Junior football, what is the future?

[Ian38018]

41 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

There's been a lot of shite posted in this thread over the years (much of it by me), but the single worst thing is when anyone kids on they give a solitary Frenchman's f**k about the "South Challenge Cup".

In its current format, you are probably correct.  But if in the future, as has been suggested, it will encompass those former East Region and West Region Juniors, it may flourish.  Could seriously do with a name change, though.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Ian38018

[parkcircus]

56 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Going off on a tangent here as people talking in the past about reserve teams joining and boundaries moving etc...

 

My question, out of the junior teams moving to the senior/pyramid, the West region and some East juniors, which teams do we know or thing will add a development squad straight away? Also which teams already in the pyramid will be or intend to add a development squad for the development league ?.
DO we think there will be a new development west league to facilitate the new development teams that may potentially start ?

Kilwinning Rangers will be looking for information soon about joining the U20s League

[Guest]

There's been a lot of shite posted in this thread over the years (much of it by me), but the single worst thing is when anyone kids on they give a solitary Frenchman's f**k about the "South Challenge Cup".

About as much as I care about the scottish junior cup, from when I played junior, until now.

However being involved in a cup run this season it began to get exciting for those involved in the club as we progressed into the semi final, only for covid to derail it.

The premise behind my view is that the junior cup has had its day, it holds no magical prestige (it did for some previously). It doesnt attract thousands to cup finals, clubs do.

It's the same argument about the grade, only this time attached to a cup, about some random prestige that clubs and people feel. You cant count the prestige or feel it or sense it it's apparently just there.

If an all in lowland cup with the ability to expand into a national non league cup is what we are after then let's work together to shape the south challenge into it.

Let's not get held back by looking into the past, it only delays progress.

[Marshmallo]

3 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

The premise behind my view is that the junior cup has had its day, it holds no magical prestige (it did for some previously). It doesnt attract thousands to cup finals, clubs do.

I disagree with this completely.

Talbot vs Pollok in the final of the Junior Cup

Talbot vs Pollok in the final of the Sectional League Cup

Would these games attract the same attendance in your opinion?

I reckon the Junior Cup final would get about 4x the attendance. That's down to the tournament, not the clubs.

[Lapsed Junior]

So we can look forward to a sponsored "Scottish Junior 'But Not Really' Cup"? Not sure about sporting integrity but that reeks. Leave it to the rump and move on. You can't have your cake and eat it.

[Beenzon-Toste]

By Tuesday, there will be 63 ex WRSJFA in the new WOSL.
The majority of which are only there because participation in the SJ Cup will continue.
This suggests to me that the SJ Cup is far from dead.

[FairWeatherFan]

16 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

I disagree with this completely.

Talbot vs Pollok in the final of the Junior Cup

Talbot vs Pollok in the final of the Sectional League Cup

Would these games attract the same attendance in your opinion?

I reckon the Junior Cup final would get about 4x the attendance. That's down to the tournament, not the clubs.

Its not so much the Junior Cup v. Sectional League Cup, probably more the West of Scotland Cup since it comes at the end of the season.

There's also the difference in how it would be treated in a SCC. That particular tie of Talbot v. Pollok they would probably try and get into a SPFL level ground which would boost the attendance compared to the typical West of Scotland level but maybe below the Junior Cup level.

[Sunrise]

By Tuesday, there will be 63 ex WRSJFA in the new WOSL.
The majority of which are only there because participation in the SJ Cup will continue.
This suggests to me that the SJ Cup is far from dead.

Do you believe they would have stayed where they were otherwise?

45+ sides went to the Lowland League meeting. But I guess that doesn’t fit your theory...

[Marshmallo]

6 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

By Tuesday, there will be 63 ex WRSJFA in the new WOSL.
The majority of which are only there because participation in the SJ Cup will continue.
This suggests to me that the SJ Cup is far from dead.

That middle sentence is not something that can be proven either way. 

[cmontheloknow]

The Junior Cup final attracts neutrals who wouldn't turn up for a cup final otherwise. But these people couldn't likely name a player in either starting XI. The SCC with similar exposure will have same draw (IMO). It's the clubs. Talbot in a national final will still attract a few thousand.

[Guest]

I disagree with this completely.
Talbot vs Pollok in the final of the Junior Cup
Talbot vs Pollok in the final of the Sectional League Cup
Would these games attract the same attendance in your opinion?
I reckon the Junior Cup final would get about 4x the attendance. That's down to the tournament, not the clubs.

The tournament itself is irrelevant, it's the cup final that draws the crowd.

It isnt because of the junior cup, it's because it was the biggest cup for the level.

The junior cup is no longer the biggest cup at the level. The south challenge is for non licensed clubs, the big scottish is for licensed clubs or soon to be licensed clubs.

We can go round and round all day using one off crowds, we could use kelty vs Talbot in the Scottish if we wished, but I dont want to.

The fact remains to be seen if the junior cup will have all those west region clubs flocking back in the years to come to play in the junior cup. Particularly given that these junior cup ties will be 3rd or 4th down the list in terms of fixtures being organised and they will be licensed, my take would be you will see an initial uptake that will fall away as more and more clubs get licensed.

The junior cup will most likely become a midweek cup for pyramid sides given fixture congestion, which I'm sure will leave the junior clubs in tayside and west Lothian perplexed with the whole thing.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

By Tuesday, there will be 63 ex WRSJFA in the new WOSL.
The majority of which are only there because participation in the SJ Cup will continue.
This suggests to me that the SJ Cup is far from dead.

You've got Gordon Ronney still saying its a choice between the Junior Cup v. SCC "It is still to be established whether clubs will compete in the South Challenge Cup or the Junior Cup… but I believe the vast majority of clubs will choose the Junior Cup because it’s a more lucrative cup, the prize money is substantial and it obviously carries a senior Scottish cup place."

Which is how some of those people may have been swayed. Yet they will all have to play in the SCC.

The Junior Cup isn't dead but its going to be changing from what people have known it to be. Just think when the Cup Final will be played.

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You've got Gordon Ronney still saying its a choice between the Junior Cup v. SCC "It is still to be established whether clubs will compete in the South Challenge Cup or the Junior Cup… but I believe the vast majority of clubs will choose the Junior Cup because it’s a more lucrative cup, the prize money is substantial and it obviously carries a senior Scottish cup place."

Which is how some of those people may have been swayed. Yet they will all have to play in the SCC.

The Junior Cup isn't dead but its going to be changing from what people have known it to be. Just think when the Cup Final will be played.

Junior Cup will be dead in 5 yrs if all pyramid sides have to play SCC - unless there's a merger of sorts.

Edited April 4, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[Bestsinceslicebread]

46 minutes ago, parkcircus said:

Kilwinning Rangers will be looking for information soon about joining the U20s League

I know the Bankies are nearly ready with theirs, going through a few things to make sure they are ready to go. Think I heard Glencairn were doing the same but didn't follow this up so not sure to be honest.  Pollok Academy and Rossvale Academy have always been working with the development league in mind and can add teams if needed but would obviously need to go over everything to make sure.

[Guest]

Junior Cup will be dead in 5 yrs if all pyramid sides have to play SCC - unless there's a merger of sorts.

It would only merge if the remaining junior clubs were part of either the eosfl or wosfl surely?

[cmontheloknow]

Just now, G4Mac said:

2 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Junior Cup will be dead in 5 yrs if all pyramid sides have to play SCC - unless there's a merger of sorts.

It would only merge if the remaining junior clubs were part of either the eosfl or wosfl surely?

which will happen within 5 yrs surely! (you'd hope)

[glensmad]

 

 

 

By Tuesday, there will be 63 ex WRSJFA in the new WOSL.

The majority of which are only there because participation in the SJ Cup will continue.

 

Sorry, but that's utter utter nonsense. 46 out of 63 West Region clubs expressed an interest in joining the WoSFL before there was any suggestion of the Scottish Junior Cup still being available. That's 73% of the clubs. I suggest you research the word "majority".

 

[Marshmallo]

3 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

The tournament itself is irrelevant, it's the cup final that draws the crowd.

It isnt because of the junior cup, it's because it was the biggest cup for the level.

The junior cup is no longer the biggest cup at the level. The south challenge is for non licensed clubs, the big scottish is for licensed clubs or soon to be licensed clubs.

We can go round and round all day using one off crowds, we could use kelty vs Talbot in the Scottish if we wished, but I dont want to.

The fact remains to be seen if the junior cup will have all those west region clubs flocking back in the years to come to play in the junior cup. Particularly given that these junior cup ties will be 3rd or 4th down the list in terms of fixtures being organised and they will be licensed, my take would be you will see an initial uptake that will fall away as more and more clubs get licensed.

The junior cup will most likely become a midweek cup for pyramid sides given fixture congestion, which I'm sure will leave the junior clubs in tayside and west Lothian perplexed with the whole thing.
 

If you're not going to answer direct questions then I'm not sure we can continue discussing. 

All I am saying is slap the label "Scottish Junior Cup" on any national tournament regardless of governing body or trophy and you would have a lot of your marketing all done for you. To pretend any of these other tournaments carry the same name value and therefore financial benefit is deliberately choosing a party line driven by "pyramid = perfect, juniors = backwards".

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, glensmad said:

 

 

Sorry, but that's utter utter nonsense. 46 out of 63 West Region clubs expressed an interest in joining the WoSFL before there was any suggestion of the Scottish Junior Cup still being available. That's 75% of the clubs. I suggest you research the word "majority".

It must keep the treasurers awake at night on R1/2 draw date to see if a 300 mile trip at a loss will be pulled from the hat.

[cmontheloknow]

Just now, Marshmallo said:

If you're not going to answer direct questions then I'm not sure we can continue discussing. 

All I am saying is slap the label "Scottish Junior Cup" on any national tournament regardless of governing body or trophy and you would have a lot of your marketing all done for you. To pretend any of these other tournaments carry the same name value and therefore financial benefit is deliberately choosing a party line driven by "pyramid = perfect, juniors = backwards".

"Aye I love the Junior Cup - good to see youngsters get a chance!"

The name is part of the issue.